The Magic Cafť
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Latest and Greatest? Ľ Ľ Lion Rings by Hector Lion & TCC (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4
Chris Aguilar
View Profile
Elite user
432 Posts

Profile of Chris Aguilar
I noticed one person saying that the Lion Rings "felt cheap". I couldn't disagree more. They're thin, sure, but made out of really sturdy steel, nicely plated.
Magical Moments
View Profile
Loyal user
227 Posts

Profile of Magical Moments
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2022, funsway wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2022, Magical Moments wrote:

I agree! The $15 sets they make have a great feel. I really like them and the nice fabric lined pull cord carry bag. My only concern is the inconsistent quality of each set. The good sets are terrific while the not so good sets are a big disappointment. It could have been avoided. That being said, even the not so great sets are certainly usable.

Think of it as luck of the draw.


From my scant feedback from Penguin so far there seems to be little problem with the regular TCC sets you are looking at. They are thicker and a regular production item, with the coloring a minor add on feature. That is, there should be no variation (or luck) in getting one of those sets. But, you can't easily do some of the Lion moves with the thicker rings - at least I can't without noise. I have deliberately closed the Gap on smaller rings for decades to advanatage, but nor for the type of instant 'visible' link offered by Lion.

The Lion sets are a special product with Lion's desire to have the 'cut' look the same as the welds, i.e. a bit imperfect. (my read) So far, there is rejection by Penguin staff to any type of pre-check before shipping. So, there apparently is some luck involved here.

You can get an inexpensive set of 4" rings from Robbins for $2.80 that have consistent but the suggested routine is worth less than $2.80. With the TCC you might get a video that has some interesting moves like on the trailer. That would be worth the extra expense. Mad Hatter has an inexpensive set but I do not know what comes with it or the manufacturing quality.

I have expensive set and enjoy the. But for some of the Framing' Premise and storyline an inexpensive set can be better (opinion). That is, a lay person can be less suspicious of a "normal ring" than a perfect one. For me, the Lion sets goes too far to the side of "imperfect weld." Is it by design or shoddy workmanship? I still do not have any good answers, and may be the only one who cares.

Maybe someone here can comment on the quality of that video.


They most likely sold at least 100 of each of the five colors so the handful of reviews is not enough to tell you much about the quality control. Barely touches the surface!

Most who bought them have not posted reviews so conclusions cannot be reached but I think it is safe to say that like my sets, the quality of the hundreds sold to others varies the same way. I doubt very that only I received sets which have any issues. That is not realistic.

So, it is the luck of the draw. Should it be? No. Is it? Yes.

Concerning the Lion Rings, everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you like them, great. If you do not like them, that is unfortunate.

Is it possible that the quality control for the Kickstarter items is more consistent? Absolutely! Maybe they pay more attention to making sure they are just right for a variety of reasons.

By the way, everyone has their own expectations concerning magic props they buy and receive. Some of us are more picky than others. So, while I have issues with some of my sets, maybe others would be okay with them. I prefer as close to perfect as reasonably possible. I did not use a magnifying glass to look at what I received. Not smooth ring finish, black rings, and sloppy end welding are obvious issues.

One thing I really like about my sets of their standard rings is the thickness of the rings. I find it easier to manipulate rings when they are not skinny so to speak.
videoman
View Profile
Inner circle
5800 Posts

Profile of videoman
A couple early observations regarding the Lion RingsÖ

Because of their smaller size in thickness and diameter they are substantially lighter in weight than most close-up ring sets and they are very quiet. Both of these things may be an advantage to strollers and tablehoppers. Pocket space is always at a premium and every little bit helps, and less weight means less pull on trousers and jackets. The Lion Rings are of a size that I think you could safely get away with calling them bracelets if you like.

I know we have been conditioned over years to value that ďrings like a bellĒ sound but in a quieter restaurant the clanking of metal can sometimes be quite irritating to others nearby so being far less noisy may be a feature and not a bug.

I was also happy to find that the standard TCC close up rings will fit into the case included with the Lion rings. Perhaps other brands of rings will to but I havenít tried yet. The case is described as a microfiber leather case and Iím not sure if itís genuine leather or not but I much prefer it over the drawstring bags. IMO it looks nicer, is easier to get the rings in and out of, and just generally appears classier and dare I say more manly than itís cloth counterparts. Personally, I would spend $12 for the case alone.

Iím not sure these rings would replace my standard sets. Iím afraid I may not be willing to sacrifice what I would have to give up in order to be able to display the rings more freely. I donít love Hector's included routine. Itís pretty basic by today's standards, which is totally fine but my preference is for a bit more variety. Although his use of a borrowed finger ring is very nice.
Plus, Iím not sure I like the general concept of the method, whereby itís almost a necessity that you point out that all the rings have joints but theyíre firmly welded and cannot come apart. Will EVERY spectator buy that? They better not even catch a whiff that you arenít letting them inspect every ring, but the 2 permanently linked rings should help alleviate that. Just not sure I even want to go down that road. Besides, itís easy enough to conceal the gap with a standard set, especially with smaller sized rings.

But overall, I am happy with them and am glad Hector developed them and released them. Iím sure for many people they will be the bees knees, especially if youíre new to ring magic and this is youíre first set. But I suspect that those more experienced with the close up linking rings will be reluctant to part with some of the more difficult moves they have worked so hard to perfect if they canít recreate them with Lion Rings.
Chris Aguilar
View Profile
Elite user
432 Posts

Profile of Chris Aguilar
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2022, videoman wrote:

Plus, Iím not sure I like the general concept of the method, whereby itís almost a necessity that you point out that all the rings have joints but theyíre firmly welded and cannot come apart. Will EVERY spectator buy that?

He doesn't point that out at all, an neither should you. Why in the world would you think he emphasizes the joints? He says the rings are strong, etc, but that's about it. There's absolutely no "necessity" for what you suggest. They see the rings and handle at least three of them.

Running, chasing, etc.
videoman
View Profile
Inner circle
5800 Posts

Profile of videoman
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2022, Chris Aguilar wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2022, videoman wrote:

Plus, Iím not sure I like the general concept of the method, whereby itís almost a necessity that you point out that all the rings have joints but theyíre firmly welded and cannot come apart. Will EVERY spectator buy that?

He doesn't point that out at all, an neither should you. Why in the world would you think he emphasizes the joints? He says the rings are strong, etc, but that's about it. There's absolutely no "necessity" for what you suggest. They see the rings and handle at least three of them.

Running, chasing, etc.


Take another look my friend, Hector does indeed point out the joint during the full performance.
Now whether that is necessary is I guess something that could possibly be debated for ages. Iím new to the rings and have never used them yet, so Iím just going by the creatorís performance. He empathizes to his spectator that they do not come apart where she can clearly see a joint. So please, enough with the righteous indignation as if Iím just wildly imagining things.

Now, maybe it would be best to wait and see if anyone mentions the joints before commenting on them. Thatís a reasonable argument.

But if done close up as these are intended, people will almost certainly see the joints as they are not intended to be invisible, as shown in your photo on page two of this thread. So it would stand to reason that most would suspect they could open up. So is it best to eliminate that possibility from the outset?
Well, I suppose it may come down to personal preference. Itís clear what Chrisís preference is, and thatís valid, I may even agree with that but Iím still finding my way with these rings so Iím unsure after having owned the rings less than 24 hours. I am only sharing my initial impressions as thatís allI have at this point.

But Chris, Iíve noticed from your other posts here on the Cafť that you really seem to go over the top in your response whenever you disagree with someone (or if someone disagrees with you) but I accept that is just your nature. But please, at least your get your facts straight before posting what you obviously believe to be the final word on a topic.
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
9457 Posts

Profile of funsway
The other Right Answer - sort of.

After some final communication with Penguin staff I realize that none of solutions I might like will happen. Getting my money back was never an option.
I do have the advantage of knowing Lion's methods that was more important to me than the physical rings. I personally would feel it unethical to just demand my money back because I find a flaw where others apparently do not. I could return them at my expense and get another set that may be no better. It does turns out I could take photos of the damaged ring, and if TCC thinks it is excessive they will give Penguin credit and I can get credit, I guess.

I had hoped that Penguin would be interested in knowing that they are shipping an inferior product, but they feel all QC problems are for the manufacturer. The person I am communicating with is not even a magician and only knows that most buyers seem happy with TCC products.

I also realize form several comments above that some misalignment is common at the welds. So, my real issue is reduced to the sharp edge being potentially dangerous. I took a fine file and knocked down the producing edges a bit. It is good enough if I ever was to use them, Lion gets some money and I don't pay any shipping. The good news is that the rings are not just thinly coated and the tiny scratches are hardly noticeable.

In fairness, Penquin can keep its prices low by only being a middleman shipper and bookkeeper. I wonder now, if they are even shippers?
The mixim that you can never expect Quality, Speed and Price holds true. Two of them, maybe.

I will happily refer folks to the Lion Rings with a couple of warnings. I hope my experience helps some reader here.

At least, I will be more patient in expecting replies from online dealers.

Still hoping someone here can advise as to the video that comes with the TCC 4" rings.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Chris Aguilar
View Profile
Elite user
432 Posts

Profile of Chris Aguilar
Video man is full of it.

Watch the video. At no time are the welds singled out. It's all the standard stuff you say when you hand someone an ungaffed ring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBTOfO9J7YM

Actual considered thought (and um, simple logic) it seems completely optional here in the Cafť's reality distortion field.

I'm out of this thread. As with many/most Cafť discussions, it's devolved to a level of ignorant backslapping and masturbatory self-interest.
tonsofquestions
View Profile
Inner circle
1276 Posts

Profile of tonsofquestions
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2022, funsway wrote:
After some final communication with Penguin staff I realize that none of solutions I might like will happen. Getting my money back was never an option.
I do have the advantage of knowing Lion's methods that was more important to me than the physical rings. I personally would feel it unethical to just demand my money back because I find a flaw where others apparently do not. I could return them at my expense and get another set that may be no better. It does turns out I could take photos of the damaged ring, and if TCC thinks it is excessive they will give Penguin credit and I can get credit, I guess.


That seems counter to Penguin's return policy:
https://www.penguinmagic.com/about/returns
Quote:
It's important to us that you have a great experience here at Penguin and the products you receive are exactly what you expected. If you feel that your product is not what you expected or aren't 100% happy with it, reach out and let us help! Drop us an email, give us a call, or chat with us. We will figure out a way to make things right.

Long term, it's much better for Penguin if you let us know when there's a problem. So, please, don't be shy. Let us know so we can earn your good feelings and continued business.

(Exceptions for DVDs, downloads, etc.)
But this is a physical product (rings) so it should apply. You're not 100% satisfied, so they should take it back. Your choice as to credit, refund, or replacement.

Are they refusing to do that? If so, that's important to share for other customers.
videoman
View Profile
Inner circle
5800 Posts

Profile of videoman
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2022, Chris Aguilar wrote:
Video man is full of it.

Watch the video. At no time are the welds singled out. It's all the standard stuff you say when you hand someone an ungaffed ring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBTOfO9J7YM

Actual considered thought (and um, simple logic) it seems completely optional here in the Cafť's reality distortion field.

I'm out of this thread. As with many/most Cafť discussions, it's devolved to a level of ignorant backslapping and masturbatory self-interest.



Yeah, youíre right Chris, and what Iím full of is sadness for you that you are unable to admit when you are wrong.

You purposely shared the demo video which is all chopped up and edited while I know you are fully aware thatit was Hector's routine in the FULL performance that is part of the instructional video that I referred to by name in my previous post. You obviously re-watched Hector's full performance, had an ďoh s**tĒ moment when you saw you were clearly mistaken, then came back on for a lame attempt at covering your mistake before quickly running off with your tail between your legs uttering some irrelevant nonsense about backslapping and masturbatory whatever. Iím sure we are all so sad to see you go. When it comes to creating a reality distortion field you are the king without doubt.
Michael Daniels
View Profile
Inner circle
Isle of Man
1546 Posts

Profile of Michael Daniels
Videoman is correct that Hector does point out the welds to the spectator in the tutorial video (at 00:46 - 00:50). Personally, I would only do this if the spectator mentioned it, or seemed suspicious about the welds.

Yes, Hector's routine is fairly basic (apart from the stand-out sequence with the spectator's finger ring) and doesn't allow the more stunning Ninja links and unlinks. The routine could, however, be developed further. I have already added a falling ring sequence to my routine and plan to end with the spectator's ring to Nest of Wallets.

I also agree with videoman that, for walkaround, the Lion Rings have practical advantages over Ninja sets in terms of pocket space/weight. The carry-case is also a great bonus.

Mike
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
9457 Posts

Profile of funsway
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2022, tonsofquestions wrote:

But this is a physical product (rings) so it should apply. You're not 100% satisfied, so they should take it back. Your choice as to credit, refund, or replacement.

Are they refusing to do that? If so, that's important to share for other customers.


I thought it made it clear it is my choice not to return it while keeping the benefits of knowing the sleights and methods,
and getting a replacement that may be the same would not help as I don't plan on performing it.

They are certainly willing to honor their policy. I just wished there was any sense that it matters as far as QC or QA are concerned.
If I had just returned this set of rings because I did not like then they may have been then shipped off to someone else.

Penguin has a marketing strategy based on free shipping and "no questions" return policy. It seems to work for them and does make
interesting products available at a lower price relative to other sellers. Hard to argue with that from a marketing angle.

As I am concerned with the quality and safety of what I put into a spectator's hands I look at other business issues.
Can I find another supplier who will be more concerned that they? Probably not. Does any other reader here care? Unknown.

I will probably purchase other items from Penguin in the future, but will hold money in reserve (and the package) since I now lack confidence
in the quality of what is being delivered. Just me. Maybe I dislike the the notion is that the "return policy" is the first item one should check when exploring a website offering. But "everybody does it" so it must be great!
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
9457 Posts

Profile of funsway
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2022, Michael Daniels wrote:
Yes, Hector's routine is fairly basic (apart from the stand-out sequence with the spectator's finger ring) and doesn't allow the more stunning Ninja links and unlinks. The routine could, however, be developed further. I have already added a falling ring sequence to my routine and plan to end with the spectator's ring to Nest of Wallets.
Mike


I also think his variation of the Odin Count (False count of the double) is worth considering for any small ring routine, if only for variety.
His use of the location of the rings on his left fingers before and after is a good example of what I call the WebRing Subtlety to use
visual Patterns to create Cognitive Ease and mask the sneaky stuff. Even the flow of a placing action rather than a take is refreshing.

The finger ring treatment and this sleight sequence is worth the price of the package even if one never uses the rings. (to me)
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Michael Daniels
View Profile
Inner circle
Isle of Man
1546 Posts

Profile of Michael Daniels
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2022, funsway wrote:
<snip>
The finger ring treatment and this sleight sequence is worth the price of the package even if one never uses the rings. (to me)


Hector's finger ring sequence needs the Lion Rings and cannot be performed with a standard 4-ring set.

Mike
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
9457 Posts

Profile of funsway
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2022, Michael Daniels wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2022, funsway wrote:
<snip>
The finger ring treatment and this sleight sequence is worth the price of the package even if one never uses the rings. (to me)


Hector's finger ring sequence needs the Lion Rings and cannot be performed with a standard 4-ring set.

Mike

Agreed sorta - sorry that I combined the two observations. I can do the ring sequence with other sets, but should not assume others might.
I often use a cheaper set where I can close the Gap for what I call "Gapless Methods." Not possible with sets like Ninja, Melero or large rings.
In many routines the Gap is only opened if I go into a Two RIng Effects with dramatic Links/Unlinks. Write me ken@eversway.com if you wish more details.

So, either offering from Hector can justify the price. Both becomes a real gift.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
AndyMo805
View Profile
New user
San Luis Obispo, CA
43 Posts

Profile of AndyMo805
Just got my Lion Rings in the mail today. Bought them used, and unfortunately the seller had lost interest and no longer has the link for tutorial. Is that something someone would be willing to share?
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
9457 Posts

Profile of funsway
Quote:
On Feb 17, 2022, AndyMo805 wrote:
Just got my Lion Rings in the mail today. Bought them used, and unfortunately the seller had lost interest and no longer has the link for tutorial. Is that something someone would be willing to share?


it's on the inside of the box cover in silver ink
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Latest and Greatest? Ľ Ľ Lion Rings by Hector Lion & TCC (4 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2022 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.24 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL