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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Please recommend a toss-like false transfer (6 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bob G
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Hi there, Rick,

Thanks for the tips. I like the look of Schneider's vanish, so it's nice to know that it can be adapted to become a toss (by some people; I hope by me eventually). I discovered that I had already bought Buckley's book from Lybrary and had forgotten -- for $7 ! Thank you, Chris Wasshuber! The physical book goes for hundreds of dollars.


I find the explanations on your videos unusually engaging, thorough, and clear. Generous of you to post them.


Marion, not sure what you mean about the Carlyle vanish, but I'll look again and see if I can figure out what you're up to. Smile


Bob
Jonathan Townsend
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@Bob, try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg-_tN_o9d4 Smile
In essence, you can use motion of the coin getting to where you wish to hold it as part of the illusion for the transfer.
For your use-case; the action can be done sideways rather than on an upswing.
The other hand can do the reverse action to effect a secret switch or open visual change.
-Jon
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Bob G
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Thanks, Jon.

Bob
imgic
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Check out David Williamson's Penguin Lecture. It's long, over 4 hours, but buried in there he talks about his strike vanish, and related tossing type vanishes. As added bonus, he talks about his cups and balls that is one of the funniest things I've seen (he literally opens the door of the studio to grab a person off the street so there's a layman to peform for). But some great stuff related to what you're looking for.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
Bob G
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Thanks, imgic. This looks like fun, and I like Williamson. I'll put it on my Christmas list. Smile


Bob
funsway
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In my eBooks you can find several "toss" sleights for vanishes, productions, fake and false transfers and more.

SwayToss, FrontalToss, DropToss, DeepDrop, SwingToss and Flick to name couple.
None good for cards though. Coins, yes. Balls, even more possibilities.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Bob G
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Thanks, Ken. You have a *lot* of ebooks. Is there one you could recommend that has some good toss transfers for balls and coins?


Bob
funsway
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2022, Bob G wrote:
Thanks, Ken. You have a *lot* of ebooks. Is there one you could recommend that has some good toss transfers for balls and coins?
Bob


in the F.U.N. Series only three of the seven volumes have been released. "FistFull" has the most Toss Sleights suitable for ball-like objects.
Since the focus is on "found" objects none discuss coin usage. Most are for transportation or assembly effects, so "vanish" is not a good notion.

My "borrowed" eBook is under construction and will address coins. Write me with a better indication of what you intent and I may be able to send you some snippets. Tap3times has three Toss Sleights. ChopSign and FoldCup both have some Toss Sleights but barely scratch the surface of possibilities.

The difference for coins and balls is what one does with the object while being Idled (temporarily out of play). I realize that "vanish" when attached to a Sleight has a different meaning for a conjuror than a lay person. If you are doing a transportation effect you want them to think "travel" and not "vanish/appear." So, any actual Vanish as an effect also requires Ditching methods, and a careful choice of Toss Method. That is why there are so many variations. You have to look at the desired end result and work backwards to "best method."

Not trying to be evasive, just need a better focus of need. Most Toss Sleights are used asynchronously to the Reveal of where the object is. They are used to secretly control the object to a place other than where the audience thinks it is. Having an object be gone/dead forever is rarely good magic, especially with a valuable coin.

Write me ken@eversway.com as needed. I can't share much on an open forum. Are there a couple of Toss Methods that can be used in many applications. Yup. But, both a drill and a gun are tools for making a hole. Which is better?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Bob G
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Lots of interesting thoughts, Ken. At the moment I'm just trying out different false transfers -- Schneider's, Holcombe's description of FP to FP, and different methods in Bobo, not all of them tosses -- to get a sense of what's most comfortable for me. I'm not at the stage where I can focus in the way you suggest.


And then ditching, as you point out, is an important additional layer!


Question: Why is making an object disappear forever not a good idea? It isn't obvious to me. In most (fictional) stories of good vs. evil the villain is permanently vanquished in the end. Perhaps more to the point, Karl Fulves touches on the idea that in magic, objects that disappear usually later reappear, but he doesn't elaborate. He has an interesting trick in The Vampire Chronicles where the spectator sees the selection only in a mirror, but the physical card is never seen and turns out not to be in the deck.


Bob
Michael Rubinstein
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There is a wonderful vanish taught by Roth on the NYCMS DVD series vol 1, which isn't hard and has a retention like quality as the coin is apparently tossed into the other hand. I will try to remember its name, but both Roth and Latta go into the audience on the video to show it close up. That might also work for you.
RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC SPECIAL:
I HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF COPIES AVAILABLE TO BE SIGNED, AND COME WITH A SPECIAL FREE GIFT! If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com
Bob G
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I'm definitely interested, Mike. I have Roth's DVD series Expert Coin Magic Made Easy (?) and one of the NYCMS DVD's, though I'm not sure which one. With luck it's Vol. I, since I'm trying to keep my spending down.


I know there's a controversy among magicians about retention of vision, but I'm all for it -- it's just so pretty.


Bob
Bob G
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P. S. Turns out I have Volume 5. I *may* buy Vol. I, but it would help to know for sure that the vanish you mention is on that volume.


Also, I have your encyclopedia of coin sleights. Any chance the vanish is there? I'm hoping that I already own a book for video where it's taught.


Thanks, Michael.


Bob
Michael Rubinstein
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I believe the move is called the flopperino. I don't see it on the table of contents, but I believe it is taught within the context of a routine. Perhaps someone can pinpoint where it is taught. It costs $15 for essentially a 4 hour download at Vanishingincmagic. Mymagic.com sells the entire set in dvd format.
RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC SPECIAL:
I HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF COPIES AVAILABLE TO BE SIGNED, AND COME WITH A SPECIAL FREE GIFT! If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com
Bob G
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Thanks for looking at the contents -- I did too, which is why I wanted to be sure it was the right disk. Weirdly, when I checked Vanishingmagic, they wanted to charge me $18. What am I, chopped liver? (Actually $18 is fine.)
Michael Rubinstein
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Here is the promo, you can see Roth doing it at about .53
https://youtu.be/yVmh64o6t-k
RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC SPECIAL:
I HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF COPIES AVAILABLE TO BE SIGNED, AND COME WITH A SPECIAL FREE GIFT! If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com
Bob G
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That went by too fast for my untutored eyes! I didn't get a retention of vision effect (though I don't doubt there is one).

I loved the music in the promo. Smile
Rick Holcombe
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Quote:
On Jan 29, 2022, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
I believe the move is called the flopperino. I don't see it on the table of contents, but I believe it is taught within the context of a routine. Perhaps someone can pinpoint where it is taught. It costs $15 for essentially a 4 hour download at Vanishingincmagic. Mymagic.com sells the entire set in dvd format.



It's on Disc 2 at about the 2hr 17min mark. Geoff is talking about his touches on the Pop Up move in one of his coins across routines.

I love this vanish and use it myself!
Michael Rubinstein
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Its not really a retention vanish, but more like a toss vanish with retention of the coin going into the hand. But vol 1 teaches over 20 types of coins across from myself, Roth, Gallo, Latta, and Harbottle, and all the moves including the shuttle pass (which will help with your wrist stuff), and so much more. Learning the retention pass is anothwr type of vanish, which you can learn from the NYCMS dvd series (and I am sure it is taught somewhere in vol 1), the Encyclopedia of Coin Sleights, the Roth material, my material, my book, Roth's book,Coinmagic by Kaufman, Latta's book, Roth's DVDs,and all th eq guys like Danny Goldsmith, Eric Chien, Ponta, etc. Depends what you wa t to do. Goldsmith just put out a download called Optical, teaching 3 moves, including the real work and psychology on his own retention vanish.
RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC SPECIAL:
I HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF COPIES AVAILABLE TO BE SIGNED, AND COME WITH A SPECIAL FREE GIFT! If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com
funsway
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Quote:
On Jan 29, 2022, Bob G wrote:
to get a sense of what's most comfortable for me. I'm not at the stage where I can focus in the way you suggest.


OK - I can teach you Swidle and SwayOn - keys to dozens of incredible Effects. Others can come later ...

Quote:
Perhaps more to the point, Karl Fulves touches on the idea that in magic, objects that disappear usually later reappear, but he doesn't elaborate.


I offer some opinions grounded in more that 10,000 presentations of effects using small object that appear to magically move about ...

to have an object "disappear" or "become invisible" or "pass though a portal" is not the same as "vanish." If it comes back it did not vanish. Studies have shown that any concept related to death should be avoided in public speaking as it risks a dissipation of hope and dislike of the speaker's main message. Magic is about hope, and having the audience expect a possible return or rebirth or becoming visible again is good. It is also silly and discordant to talk about a valuable gold coin from your grandfather and then destroy it. I am just suggesting that the term "vanish" be avoided unless you mean that it is completely and irrevocably dead. A Magician is truthful in saying what he will do and then appearing to do exactly that. Do not risk confusion or rejection by using the term or "going back on your word."

But the main problem is introducing the concept of "disappear here - reappear over there" when you are doing a transportation effect or any sense of active movement by mysterious means. In Twentieth Century Silks the one silk does not vanish and the become reborn in between the other two. It jumps there my magical means. Coins across effects or assembly are all about invisible movement. That is a "probable impossibility" for most folks. Physical death and rebirth is not, or a risky premise.

sadly (for me) many slight sequences (passes) related to a transfer of an object from one hand to another are called "vanishes" when the reveal of "gone" is usually best delayed or part of a larger surprise. A good sleight has a "never happened" quality and nothing should draw attention to it. Fake transfers often include a transfer to another hand for no apparent reason and are suspect. If there is a good 'natural reason' for the shift of object in hands, then why draw attention to it? Toss Sleights can allow for a 'false transfer" in that the object is actually in the receiving hand and the placing hand shown empty because it is). Then you control the object back to where you want it to be while the observers 'know' it is in the left hand. Why do a POV glimpse of the coin in the left hand when you can have it fully visible there? Or simply pick up the coin with the left finger and show on the palm. A secret toss move to the right hand leaves the left fist empty and the right not suspect at all.

If you do a 'flash' type 'vanish' fake transfer because "it is beautiful" it is a flourish or skill demonstration and might unnecessarily focus attention on your left hand instead of elsewhere. The Schneider Basic 'vanish' is much better as a convincer while seeming a normal action. "Predictive vision" is more powerful than "persistence of vision" in memory. Best thing is that you can do a pseudo pass with no coin at all after a toss action to idle the coin.

Kudos to you for exploring the various ways of control the location of an object rather than just doing what is popular. I am not against what is miscalled an "ROV Vanish" and have several superior methods to the "flash" never published. I am prepared should that sequence be best to produce the desired end results. A "toss based false transfer" is better in other cases. A p**l or other gimmick may be better in others. One that is great with a ball may be poor with a coin, etc.

Enjoy the journey!
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
tonsofquestions
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Quote:
On Jan 29, 2022, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
Goldsmith just put out a download called Optical, teaching 3 moves, including the real work and psychology on his own retention vanish.


I can't recommend Danny's Goldsmith enough. Everything he puts out is ... Gold. (Sorry, couldn't resist).
Which is not to say that the others aren't great, too - the NYCMCS set is amazing. But I really love Danny's thinking and teaching.
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