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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Flying Eagles (9 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

warren
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Here's my take on the classic Flying Eagles plot, I've done this on a spectators hands so it can also be performed without a table.



---
Zauberman
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Very very nice!
A worker methinks Smile
Mb217
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Yep, very well done. Smile
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


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warren
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Thanks for the positive comments much appreciated.
RNK
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Well done Warren. You do a very nice Goshman Pinch. That is such a great utility move that I think all coin workers should learn.
warren
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Quote:
On Sep 13, 2022, RNK wrote:
Well done Warren. You do a very nice Goshman Pinch. That is such a great utility move that I think all coin workers should learn.


Thanks much appreciated.... I agree it's agreat utility move that can definitley add to an effect.
Michael Rubinstein
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The name Goshman Pinch is a misnomer. The move was created by Tenkai and is now known as the Tenkai Pinch. Reference can be found in Rubinstein Coin Magic.
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Ray Haining
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Nice Flying Eagles routine with some real fooling parts.


Quote:
On Oct 4, 2022, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
The move ["Goshman Pinch"] was created by Tenkai and is now known as the Tenkai Pinch.


"... because I, Michael Rubinstein, say so."

It may have been created by Tenkai, but it is referred to as the "Goshman Pinch" in much of the literature, so a more proper (and helpful) assignation would be "Tenkai-Goshman Pinch."
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Oct 5, 2022, Ray Haining wrote:
Nice Flying Eagles routine with some real fooling parts.


Quote:
On Oct 4, 2022, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
The move ["Goshman Pinch"] was created by Tenkai and is now known as the Tenkai Pinch.


"... because I, Michael Rubinstein, say so."

It may have been created by Tenkai, but it is referred to as the "Goshman Pinch" in much of the literature, so a more proper (and helpful) assignation would be "Tenkai-Goshman Pinch."


Blame Bobo; who got the trick from Goshman but didn't listen when Goshman explained the sleight was Tenkai's.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Ray Haining
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In any event, the move is nicely used by Warren Tredaway in his Flying Eagles routine above. I didn't catch it at first.
Michael Rubinstein
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"... because I, Michael Rubinstein, say so."
Really Ray? I would have expected better from you. I did not coin the term Tenkai Pinch. I didn't feel like writing the history at the time, but it is in my book, gleaned from my research into PROPER crediting. Goshman DID NOT INVENT THE MOVE. The move was first published by Ishida Tenkai, published in his routine The Tenkai pennies in the 1953(or 56, depending on sources) book Six Tricks by Tenkai. It was NOT in the original Bobo book, but printed MISTAKENLY by Bobo as the Goshman Pinch in the 1966 updated edition of the New Modern Coin Magic. As to the history, Jon Townsend is correct. Here is a post by Richard Kaufman explaining in more detail in the Genii Forum from back in 2006.

"Re: Tenkai Pinch Literary sources

PostAugust 12th, 2006, 3:50 pm

The sleight is Tenkai's--it was brought back from overseas by Sol Stone just after WWII, who taught it to Al Goshman.

Some of those who saw Goshman, including J.B. Bobo in the preparation of Modern Coin Magic, mistakenly credited the grip to Goshman."
To further give the history, here is a direct quote from the book The Essential Sol Stone:

"Ed Balducci showed Sol the Tenkai Pennies routine in 1945. Balducci had been taught the routine by Tenkai himself, long before the routine ever saw print. Sol taught the routine to Al Goshman, who was in turn largely responsible for popularizing the effect in this country. In Tenkai's original handling a coin was clipped against the back of the hand by the fourth finger, and this is the method that Sol taught Goshman. Perhaps as a result, this method of concealing a coin has become known in the United States as the Goshman Pnch. IT IS NOT, HOWEVER, ORIGINAL WITH GOSHMAN - WHO NEVER CLAIMED CREDIT FOR IT - AND IS MORE PROPERLY REFERRED TO AS THE TENKAI PINCH" (And that is a DIRECT quote). Sol's own method for the Tenkai Pennies was published in Hugard's Magic Monthly back in 1950, but instead of using the Tenkai Pinch as described by Tenkai, he used a second and third back finger clip which he felt made the hand look better.

There is another reference to the PROPER name of Tenkai Pinch in 1971 by Roger Kause, in First Steal in Tenkai Pinch.And Jerry Mentzer in 1973, Scotty York in 1975. And on and on. Others have tried to correct Bobo's blatent error (especially because he was aware of Tenkai and his work). In fact, in the New Modern Coin Magic he published Tenkai's routine with an illustration of the position, and explains that Tenkai taught it to him years ago, yet still blatently calls it the Goshman pinch.

So here is the issue. The New Modern Coin Magic was a popular book, and miscredited the move. That has cause many others to reference that and do the same. Bit Goshman just used the move, it is not his.

We stand on the shoulders of those who have come before us. We learn from others and teach others. That is how magic passes on. People who come up with stuff and publish need to be credited for their efforts. So let's help perpetuate correct nomenclature and correct mistakes from the past. (And there are many, unfortunately, from those who innocently published incorrect credits from incorrect sources).

I am not the magic policeman, and it is not so because I say so (Get it Ray?). Sankey does the move as well as anyone, but no one called it the Sankey Pinch because it is the TENKAI PINCH.
There are other mistakes in magic that still haven't been corrected. For example, the Ramsay subtlety was not Ramsay's, as Stephan Minch found a reference of this concealment in a coin vanish from the Nov 1914 issue of the Magic Wand, attributed to Henri Hermann, who taught it to the author, C.H.Shortt, in 1877. But all I can do is point out this reference as I did in my book.
On this forum, everyone is entitled to offer an opinion. But these are the cold facts. And regardless of you taking a cheap shot at me I will defend the magic history beause I hold it dear. And I hope you all do as well.
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Ray J
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There is a tendency in magic to link things to performers who feature them. Goshman was one of the early adopters of this move and became ASSOCIATED with it. No, he didn't invent it, but his use of it has forever linked him with the move.

Another example is linking (pun intended) Shoot Ogawa to the Ninja Rings. The original routine was from Masahiro Yanagida, and it was actually Dan Fleshman who received permission to publish a version of the routine on one of his video tapes. Although Danny beat Shoot to the punch, his name never really got linked (there I go again) to the routine. Probably because it was part of a VHS tape, not a stand-alone offering that included rings. Marketing matters!

Most magicians likely believe Shoot Ogawa created Ninja Rings. Because he is so closely associated with them.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
Michael Rubinstein
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Ray J, you are correct that this is what happens, but it doesn't mean we should all just go along with it. Goshman is associated with the move thanks to J.B. Bobo. Others have given credit to Goshman solely based on their innocent citing of this error, not because he did it well. Others did the move just as well (Tenkai, who lived for a time in America, Sol Stone, Ed Balducci, Jay Sankey, Scotty York, Tom Gagnon, and more). For years, as I pointed out, people have tried to correct the mistake made by Bobo. This is not the first time others have tried to correct crediting mistakes. For example, the Malini Subtlety USED to be known as the Kaps Subtlety, even though Kaps never himself took credit for it, as I have pointed out before.
I think it's time we all start give proper credit instead of getting into the repetitive (and tiresome) argument that so-and-so does it well so the move should be theirs. I will no longer argue on this subject because there is nothing more I can say after having provided documentation of why the name is the Tenkai Pinch, and propagating an incorrect name on social media only serves to advance the mistake.
Warren, I am so sorry to have "highjacked" your thread, it was unintentional and based on another comment directed at me. Thanks for posting a nice routine. I will not respond to anyone one else about this on your thread.
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Ray Haining
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Michael, we've gone over this before, and I have no desire to beat a dead horse.

You made a pronouncement: "The move was created by Tenkai and is now known as the Tenkai Pinch" (my italics). If you had said: "The move was created by Tenkai and should be known as the Tenkai Pinch," I would have had no problem with it.

My point is that crediting a move and naming a move are two different things. In naming a move, usage should be taken into account. The move is referred to throughout the literature as the "Goshman Pinch." You're not going to change what's already been written. Therefore there is no harm in referring to the move as the "Tenkai-Goshman Pinch," which will enlighten current and future generations of readers, those who may not be particularly conversant with magic history, that the moves--the Tenkai Pinch and the Goshman Pinch--are one and the same.

In any event, you can't dictate what a move will be called. You can only make suggestions.

Warren, in his Flying Eagles routine above, does the move particularly well in that he quite nicely reduces the tell of the misalignment of the pinky with respect to the other fingers.
Michael Rubinstein
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Here is another example, in addition to the correction of the misnomer Kaps Subtlety to the correct Malini Subtlety. Al Schneider created the pickup move. Derek Dingle learned it from Schneider, and used it in his book stating that the move was his (Kinda like Bobo stating incorrectly that the move was Goshman's). It was subsequently thought (mistakenly) that there was a case of independent invention, and people started to write the name in the literature incorrectly as the Dingle/Schneider pick up move. Once Al Schneider explained how Dingle appropriated his move, and got the message out, subsequent corrections were made and the move is now correctly called the Pick-up move by Al Schneider. Same thing. But nothing will change as long as people insist a KNOWN mistake should not be corrected. It is never too late to correct the errors of the past.
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Mitchael
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Why does Magic have a community? The Community as it is proper, cares about crediting the creators, and more importantly those that shared their creation. By sharing it is a gift, even if you must pay to recieve the gift. Ultimately however, I have always considered Magic and Illusions to be for the spectator. Not to convince them you are supernatural but to entertain them. Part of the entertainment is not indicating to the spectator that there is a method to the illusion. Saying that this is a Goshman pinch, or a Tenkai Pinch or even referencing the word Pinch is not something we should do.

Should you reference the creator of an effect to laymen, ever? You know the answer is almost always no, but when talking to your fellow Magicians, always at least try to credit the idea. I have for instance a coin vanish, not taught anywhere, showed the magician that created part of the method, and he had never considered it. So I credit him with the inspiration even... though the vanish is all my own. Peace and good will to all.
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