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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Micrediting of the Schneider Pick up move (12 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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fonda57
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Hey, wait, I created the Dingle Schneider pick up move
I j
ajb6864
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Greece
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Whilst it is important to endeavour to credit correctly, it is also necessary to recognise the difficulty in previously establishing the lineage of many sleights and effects with true authority.

It is certainly much easier today to view and research source material than in the not too distant past, when material was zealously guarded. This luxury wasn't afforded to most magicians that began prior to the advent of the Internet, when our knowledge was borne out of library books, magic periodicals and, if we were fortunate enough, the experience of mentors and/or possibly magic club membership. This is something we should at least acknowledge.

A good example of how difficult it is for new magicians to be able to recognise or attribute credits correctly, is highlighted by the fact that they are pointed to material, that Michael mentions, such as Bobo's book. If this often referred to 'Bible' contains several questionable credits, do we stop pointing newcomers to the book? Has anyone contacted Dover Press to get corrections made? Are we saying that it devalues the worth of the book?

Probably one of the most widely used coin routines, if The Magic Café comments are anything to go by, that uses the Tenkai/Goshman pinch is '3 Quarters Across' by Gregory Wilson, where he describes the move as the Goshman pinch. If someone as accomplished and experienced as Wilson can make make this supposed oversight of crediting, then does this not excuse or legitimise to some degree the wide-spread use of the term by less experienced magicians?

BTW, my understanding of the differences in the naming of the specific pinch were explained to me by the late Ken De Courcy, as being that it was the set-up 'move' to get into the pinch. Again, whether right or wrong, we can see that other facts or factors can play a part in preferred nomenclature.

Michael started the topic by highlighting the Schneider/Dingle pickup move as an example of erroneous crediting and I have 'no dog in this fight' as I believe both men have contributed greatly to magic in the past and Al Schneider in particular has been of great influence to me. I'm presuming that due diligence was done in attributing the credit to Al, rather than just the Genii write up, although that is unclear from just the initial post which seems a little disparaging of Derek Dingle. It does, however, raise the question of why nothing was mentioned between 1970/1971, when Dingle's book was published/released and 2004, when Dingle died.

With that said; to highlight the difficulties in attributing credit and to illustrate the point, without prejudice, I offer an example as a point of interest:-

Oscar Weigle - Ring On Stick - Pallbearer's Review (June 1972) p523

Al Schneider - Ring & Pencil - Close Up Magic (1980)

Both extremely 'similar' effects and method, but was Schneider's a deliberate copy of Weigle's routine? Was Weigle shown the routine by Schneider 8 or more years earlier and Weigle decided to put it in print first to stake a claim (an accusation often levelled against Ed Marlo)? Was it a case of independent invention? If Al Schneider had read Pallbearer's Review at that time and it was his routine, why wouldn't he have contacted Fulves, who was always happy to try to correct misappropriation, as in the case of the Marlo/Pladek roll-up move in the Pladek' 3 Ball Routine'? Fulves comments in the editorial regarding the Marlo/Pladek case also highlight the problem with accepting the first published handling as ownership of magical ideas.

I personally would find it uncomfortable to judge without both parties being able to answer, such as in the case of Schneider/Weigle or Schneider/Dingle.

In conclusion, I agree wholeheartedly that credit should be made whenever possible, but we should also be as careful of some of the finger-pointing and accusations when we cannot be absolutely certain of all of the facts.

We are all very fortunate that we now have a growing wealth of knowledge and resources, not least The Magic Café, that allow us to establish our own view of the history of magical creations.
Michael Rubinstein
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I am sure Al's claim was corroborated, because that credit has been accepted by those who initially called it the Dingle or Dingle-Schneider pick-up move and knew Derek well (like Kaufman) You might want to contact him regarding his ring and pencil routine. He has always been helpful when I approached him about crediting.
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atroc
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So, practically speaking. If someone was to come up with a move they want to publish because they haven’t seen it before - how do they even begin the research phase?
Lawrens Godon
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Here's a good place to start :
https://www.conjuringarchive.com/
atroc
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I guess you just pick some common portions of the move and then start researching that way? For example if your move starts from nowhere palm, use that and start looking through references?
Michael Rubinstein
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Https://www.conjuringarchive.com/list/se......ere+palm

This is by no means a complete reference. There are a multitude of dvds and downloads that use nowhere palm that haven't been referenced. But it is a start. Check out contents of coin dvds and downloads to find additional material.
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atroc
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I'm sorry for continuing with questions -> I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of how the whole process works.

So lets say I have a route/method, and it starts with something like the Nowhere Palm.

I do some research and find that, oh actually Person A talks about a very similar routine/method, but they try and end with X and I'm doing Y.

Crediting Person A is fine - but what about teaching the moves I'm doing (that may be similar to what Person A published), but ending with my variation? Personally I'd try and reach out to Person A and talk about it - but in situations where that's not possible?

I'm just wondering because I often see magicians selling tutorials for things that include a lot of prior art that is credited, but I don't understand the requirements around being able to teach those moves.
Michael Rubinstein
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If person A came up with an idea first, and you make a minor change to that move (like using your second finger instead of your third finger) it is only a variation. If you found a better way to accomplish what the first person did, and it is different enough to be considered a new move, the first person should still be credited as inspiration for your idea. I tell the story of when I came up with a coin move, and showed it to the NY guys. Sam Schwartz told me that the move was Vernon's, but I should be commended for coming up with something early in my career for something it took Vernon years to do. However, I couldn't call it my own even if I came up with the idea independently. I never forgot that advice, and pass along that wisdom when I can.
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