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Bob G Inner circle 2830 Posts |
Thank you for your kind remarks, Ray. I think you're absolutely right that forming a connection with the audience is important to me. Your comment about artists who don't care whether others appreciate their work made me think of a reading I went to by the poet Rita Dove. She said she never writes because she hopes to be admired; rather, her favorite kind of praise is, "Wow, I know exactly what you mean; I've experienced that, too."
Since you've brought up twice my performance of Dr. Daley for the woman I didn't know, I'll describe the experience in more detail. We were at a volunteer group, and she saw me playing with my cards during a slow moment. She asked me what I was doing. I said, "practicing magic." She said, "Are you any good?" I found that remark rude, and in retrospect I think that should have been the end of the discussion. Instead I said, "No, but I'll be happy to show you a trick if you like." She agreed. Her one comment (which was helpful, actually) was that she had seen me lay down an Ace that wasn't the color it was supposed to be. In other words, I had flashed. For all I know she *loved* the trick but isn't a demonstrative person. While I'm here, I thought of an example of this whole business of charisma, probably inspired by the fact that Whit Haydn contributed a post to this thread -- and maybe also because I'm rereading Huck Finn. I enjoy Haydn's magic immensely. He's funny, he plays his character with utter conviction, and his magic is amazing and carefully thought out with great imagination, intelligence, and sensitivity (and he has the accomplished artist's ability to seem spontaneous and make it look easy). The interesting thing is that his persona is quite far from the sort of person I grew up with and usually associate with. I grew up in the upper midwest, in cities. I have no direct experience of the rural South, which I'm thinking (guessing, really) is the background to the "Pop" character. The parents of my best friend in high school were from rural Georgia, but that's a far cry from being thouroughly acquainted with anything rural or Southern. Somehow Whit is able to bridge the gap and entertain people like me who come from a different background from that of his "Pop" character. I'd guess that Whit is one of those natural performers you spoke of. I'm not sure how that relates to my own journey to become comfortable and effective performing for a variety of audiences, but it feels relevant. Bob |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
Yeah, when a stranger begins by asking you if your are any good, that's not a great sign. I know you were trying to be humble, but I'd never say "no" to the question. Maybe "Oh, I can hold my own", or something to that effect so that you don't come off as arrogant. if that isn't your style, maybe say "Well, let's find out", and then proceed. I'm generalizing and exaggerating, but to me when you say no you are setting yourself up for failure. Hopefully you don't believe that you're no good. If you do, it will affect your magic.
I appreciate you fleshing out the details. Concerning flashing, yes, that is a killer when you intend for them to believe one thing and they can clearly see it isn't true. That image sticks in their mind and they probably forget all of the rest of what was going on. Always, always be mindful of such issues. One thing I see some magicians do is practice one way and then when it comes time to perform, the situation is the complete opposite. For example, they sit at a comfortable table, in a comfy chair and practice false riffle shuffles and then they find themselves wanting to do that standing. It is different! For one thing it is hard to bend over and get down to the proper level in order to riffle shuffle on some tables. In those situations I just don't do much of anything that relies on the table in that way. I'll switch to in-the-hands shuffles. So learn from this and figure out why you flashed and determine what you can do next time to prevent it from happening. Being aware of the potential pitfall is crucial. Situational awareness is crucial.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
Bob, the subject of characters is a great one and there are threads all around magicdom discussing it. Pop does his extremely well. But I've seen older video of him and he was extremely polished as Whit also. He obviously didn't "need" to create a character.
I got into a debate about this on another forum once, but in my opinion anytime a magician performs they are different from their typical self. I think they have to be. Spend some time around a few of the pros and you'll find they are often quite different when socializing versus performing. Most performers become more aware of how they present themselves and so they might stand up straighter, speak a little louder and more slowly, and refrain from doing certain behaviors that might be natural to them when not performing. The relevance to this thread is that I don't think you need to become somebody else in order to perform effectively, but you do need to be mindful of doing and not doing certain things. In other words, you are being a version of yourself. The roots are still there, but you've pruned some of the branches. Hope that makes sense.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Bob G Inner circle 2830 Posts |
I see your point, Ray, about finding ways to be humble without implying that one believes oneself to be a poor magician. I was taken by surprise, and I think in my own mind I was being just a bit sarcastic -- trying to call her out -- but she may well have taken me seriously, because I didn't speak in a sarcastic tone, and wouldn't have wanted to. The experience was a confirmation of what I've read several places, that you learn things from performance that you'll never learn in practice. With a little thought I'll come up with a me-like response to that question. Of course, then there's the *next* unexpected situation...
The flashing will be easy to fix. I just need to remember to tilt the card downward as I place it on the table. I see what you're saying about the difference between practice and performance. If you're going to perform standing you need to practice standing, too, at least some of the time. Do I believe that I'm no good? Unfortunately I have a double vision about my own abilities. In my head I know that in some areas I'm *very* good at what I do -- but that info often has trouble percolating down to my heart, if you see what I mean. That's why I think some of Marty and Matt's suggestions may help me. I had a very interesting experience way back when I was in my twenties, one that supports your ideal of performers keeping their roots but pruning a few branches (nice image, by the way!). I'd been having some trouble learning how to teach, and to deal with nervousness. I made up my mind that at the beginning of the next semester I was going to project confidence. (I was already projecting genuine enthusiasm, but that isn't the same thing.) Anyway, that semester went swimmingly and I had wonderful repoire with my students. The class really gelled, and people who were scared of math became willing to give it a chance. It was a great lesson, one that I need to return to in my magic. It's related to Nick's comment that fear of failure can hold a person back. Bob |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
I love that example of how you dealt with nervousness in a teaching situation. Good job! Any time you can get kids enthused about learning you've pulled off an incredible feat.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Wravyn Inner circle 3479 Posts |
Another thing that can hold a person back is fear of success.
What kind of things would you do to grant your students success? Is there a way to allow a success in the second phase of Chicago Opener when it does not look as if things worked? Instead of you doing the magic, they do? HOW did they manage to do that???? Their success, and not yours. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Gosh, I'm going to disagree here: I don't think she was being rude, just curious, and I really like your reply.
I think by lowering her expectations you took some of the anxiety off yourself, and she was willing to watch. And you got some good feedback. I think that's exactly how it should go at this stage of your performing. It's different for a formal show, but for a casual one-on-one social interaction, I think it was fine.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2830 Posts |
Gosh, thanks, everybody! I think it really comes down to getting more experience performing.
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
Every performer IS a character! The audience will be looking at this "stranger" for cues as to who he is, what he is up to, whether they like him or not, etc., etc.
The question is whether or not the performer will take charge of this image, or let the audience make assumptions about who the character is and what he is about. You don't have a choice about performing as a character, you can only choose to take control of the image or not. There is a big difference between good acting and range. An actor can be very good, yet not have much range. Olivier had huge range, able to play a French king, a Nazi hunting Jew, an over the hill London variety artist or a German general. He was also a good actor. Spencer Tracy, Humphrey Bogart, or Edward G. Robinson were all fine actors, but had smaller range--they could play many different characters, but they needed to be within the range of their accents and mannerisms--basically of themselves. Robinson was not really convincing as Dathan in the Ten Commandments, but when playing a character within his range, he was wonderful. Pop Haydn was a big project, and not something that most magicians would want to emulate. I was a trained as an actor, and worked and traveled with a theater company in the early Seventies. But my prior work as "Whit Haydn" was also a character, with a backstory, agenda, and accent different from my own. It is more difficult to "play yourself" on stage then most people realize. It is plenty of work for most performers. The idea is to take control of how the audience views you, to change your personal history to account for your magical abilities and need to demonstrate them. If that is not internally motivated for you, the audience will fill everything in, usually not the way you would want. "Why is he here?" "He's a magician. He's going to show us how good he is." "Well, show us what you got!" You don't want this situation, where the audience turns themselves into judges with scorecards in their laps. To avoid it, you have to take charge of the audience's view of who you are and why you are here--what you want to give them--or the audience will fill it in for you. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2830 Posts |
Hi Whit,
I can well believe that creating "Pop" was a big project, and was interested to hear about your acting experience. I don't know Olivier's work well enough to make the comparison, but Kenneth Branagh strikes me as another actor with a big range. I don't have any illusions that I can be an actor, not even of any kind, as Oscar Wilde would say. But -- playing myself, yes, that seems possible -- it's what I did as a teacher, I suppose. But I never gave my "character" the kind of conscious, deliberate thought that you suggest. Looking back, I guess I unconsciously emphasized the enthusiastic, energetic, I-really-want-to-help-you sides of myself. The heart of your advice is: "The idea is to take control of how the audience views you, to change your personal history to account for your magical abilities and need to demonstrate them." I don't have any idea of how to start doing that, though I'm certainly intrigued by it. If you wish to elaborate on the quoted sentence, or give examples, I'd be interested! Changing one's personal history, for instance, sounds like something that an actor would do to prepare for a part, but I don't know how I'd even begin if my plan is to play a version of myself. I now understand a little better your point, in your earlier post, that magicians need to examine what interests them about magic in the first place. In my reply I offered some thoughts, but I don't know what I would do with them. Thanks for the advice you've already offered about how to learn to perform effectively. Bob |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1665 Posts |
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Every performer IS a character! The audience will be looking at this "stranger" for cues as to who he is, what he is up to, whether they like him or not, etc., etc. While I agree in essence with what you're saying here, I think that there's a big difference between a "character" that is very different to your natural personality and a "performing persona", which reveals or exaggerates aspects of your existing identity. If you don't have training as an actor, I firmly believe that the best thing you can do is write a script for every trick you perform. I'm doing this at the moment and, while it is a big pain in the backside, the process of writing is helping me develop my performance persona. I wouldn't go as far as describing it as a character because I perform for friends and co-workers. If I presented my tricks in full-on "theatrical mode", it would come across as disingenuous and odd. However, I'm also planning a parlour show in which I play the part of a dead Victorian magician. For that show, I need to do a significant amount of work to develop the character. I've just published a blog post on scriptwriting that may be useful to you, Bob. While this is written firmly from the perspective of an amateur, and I'm nowhere near as experienced as some like Pop, hopefully, you'll find some valuable advice in there! Read The Power of Premise and Plot Marty |
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Bob G Inner circle 2830 Posts |
I enjoyed reading your thoughts, Marty. I need to think more deeply about the distinctions among premise, plot, and theme. I mentioned above that I *always* write a script -- to make my performance as effective as I can, to avoid narrating what my hands are doing, and to give me the freedom to be spontaneous -- all of which you mentioned.
I suggest that you clarify your statement, "In an ideal world, you should start with a clear premise and then develop the plot of your trick," by pointing out that writers don't always *begin* with premise and plot. Certainly there are writers who plan out an entire novel, say, before they begin to write. But I've read *lots* of advice about how to write poetry, and almost invariably, poets suggest that you just start writing, and see what emerges. That's only the first step, of course; at some point in revision you start noticing a structure (or a theme, plot, and premise, I suppose), which you then try to enhance. Mind you, there's a whole spectrum of freedom in the early stages; you might just write whatever comes into your head, or decide to write very freely, or somewhat freely, or not very freely about a certain topic, or write in a certain form (sonnet, sestina...), or write using only words that don't contain the letter "e." Or, for that matter, you might start with "What if...?" and see what comes of it. Your blog post brought me back to the question of whether magic is an art. I'm going to make up an unscripted definition of art: a structured work that is meant to move the people who partake of it, or to encourage them to see the world in a new way. By that definition, magic is probably an art: if it's well done, it can move an audience to a sense of wonder; an enjoyment of mystery; laughter; the fear that a horror story evokes (not my cup of tea); maybe even the sense of disorder that a tragedy or detective story or romantic comedy begins with, and then the pleasure of a resolution, a sense that the world is ordered again. My intuition is that magic is more narrow in the ways it can move us than the endeavors that are traditionally considered art: painting, music, literature, dance, film... But I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Thanks for sharing your blog, Marty. I hope that your ideas will help me improve my presentations, at the very least because I'll be thinking about premise, etc. as I work on my scripts. Bob P. S. Here are two references, besides the ones that Marty mentioned, that address premise and plot: Ron Bauer's series of pamphlets, and the two volumes, Scripting Magic, by Pete McCabe. P. P. S. Good luck with your project to assume the character of a dead magician! I'll be interested to hear what comes of it. |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1665 Posts |
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on my article, Bob. I've added a paragraph to clarify that starting with a premise is only one of many approaches. The main point I was trying to make is that many magicians begin with the effect (the plot) and have to find a premise that supports the plot. The equivalent would be a writer fleshing out a compelling character and creating a story for the character to inhabit afterwards.
Marty |
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Bob G Inner circle 2830 Posts |
You're welcome, Marty; glad my remarks were helpful. I think that _The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_ fits your sentence about "The equivalent... ." Huck's character is only broadly stroked in the preceding novel, _The Adventures of Tom Sawyer_, but in _Huckleberry Finn_ his character is revealed in great detail. The story unfolds in a fascinating way that sheds light on Huck's conflicting attitudes, as a white boy in the early nineteenth century, toward his friend Jim, who is an escaping slave. (I don't know which came first, the fleshed-out character or the story-line. They could easily have evolved together, each feeding the other.)
Returning to magic, let me see if I have this right. The plot of Chicago Opener is well-established (though of course people have invented all kinds of interesting variations). To make the plot engaging, you need a premise that breathes life into the plot. In my first (I think) post on this thread, I described how I handled the trick. In retrospect I suppose the premise was, "What if you had a magic wand that could turn things red?" Written in isolation like that, the premise seems pretty weak. I came up with the wand business in order to add humor and clarify the plot, and it seemed to work well. I wasn't thinking of a premise. Hmmm.... Well, as Holmes might say, "These are deep waters, Watson." Bob |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1665 Posts |
Quote:
Returning to magic, let me see if I have this right. The plot of Chicago Opener is well-established (though of course people have invented all kinds of interesting variations). To make the plot engaging, you need a premise that breathes life into the plot. In my first (I think) post on this thread, I described how I handled the trick. In retrospect I suppose the premise was, "What if you had a magic wand that could turn things red?" Written in isolation like that, the premise seems pretty weak. I came up with the wand business in order to add humor and clarify the plot, and it seemed to work well. I wasn't thinking of a premise. Hmmm.... Well, as Holmes might say, "These are deep waters, Watson." In his book Approaching Magic, David Regal makes the point that even a weak premise is better than nothing. I think you could find a stronger premise. I'd ask myself the question, "Why does the card turn red?" and, in turn, "why do other objects turn red?" Is the card hot or heat-sensitive? Is the card dangerous? Red is often used to signify danger. Is the card angry? I sometimes shake the pack and say that this makes the card "red with anger". This is also a weak premise, but it works surprisingly well. Or you could change the colour of the card. For example, a green-backed card could inspire a presentation based on The Incredible Hulk: "Oh, the Jack of Clubs. When I was a kid, I used to pretend that the Jack of Clubs was Bruce Banner... You wouldn't like to see him when he's angry!" Then talk about the Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onzz), who is also green, and a shapeshifter. It needs work, but I'm sure you get the idea. Marty |
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Bob G Inner circle 2830 Posts |
Nice ideas, Marty. Thanks for giving me more examples to stimulate my imagination.
Bob |
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gregg webb Inner circle 1564 Posts |
As far as the first part, with something so visual, I found just having the spectator tap the deck was enough. As far as the second phase, there is an interesting (and European - maybe Swiss...I forget) second phase in Steve Minch's Sonatas for Pasteboards. I don't remember the name of the trick but it is in there and is one of the better ending phase ideas I've seen.
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
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On Nov 14, 2022, gregg webb wrote: Is it possible you are remembering this book? Concertos for Pasteboard New Card Compositions by 29 German & Swiss Masters 2000 Written by Oliver Erens Oliver Erens Chicago - and Beyond chicago opener, deck changes color and then back to original color as climax All this taken from conjuringarchive.com https://www.conjuringarchive.com/list/bo......ht=45544
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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gregg webb Inner circle 1564 Posts |
I thought it was Sonatas, but this seems related. Is yours a Hermetic Press book? The one I was remembering was. That part I'm sure of. That may be it, the more I think of it. Thanks.
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gregg webb Inner circle 1564 Posts |
Yes, that's it. Once I looked at the cover I remembered it. I must be losing my memory. I remember the 2nd phase because I used to use it. It is different from most Red Hot Mamma endings.
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