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Scott Special user UK 799 Posts |
Hi,
I posted a reply to the suspended strait-jacket escape question but didn't really introduce myself, so I thought I'd do that before asking my questions. My name is Scott. I have been into magic and its related arts since the age of 8 (oh no that's 30 years). I have been facinated by escapology since seeing the Houdini film as a child. Yep I mean the original with Tony Curtis as Houdini. Although I don't have a full escape act, up until a year ago I closed my standup show with an electric chair strait-jacket escape. I have also done a number of suspended strait-jacket/handcuff and chain escapes and two bridge jumps as publicity stunts. I was saddened to hear that David DeVal has died, I haven't spoken to him for a number years when I was researching publicity escapes. Knowing of his reputation I phoned him and we spoken at length on a weekly basis for nearly 3 months. He was straight talking had a wealth of information, a great sense of humour and was a Houdini expert. I will treasure the master escape cuffs, master padlock and video he let me have. Which leads me onto my questions/search for opinions. During one of our conversations I asked David about picking locks i.e. handcuffs, padlocks, cells etc. His reply may shock some of you but I quote... "Don't bother lad, I spent 20 years learning how to pick locks and I wish I hadn't bothered. If you want to do a handcuff escape act just display or have them examine some genuine cuffs and then switch them for some you can open without a key. The rest is acting. If you want to do a challenge act, then make sure you have a key for every type of handcuff available." End quote. I have noticed that some of the escape artists (as opposed to escape magicians) I have seen on TV from the states openly state that they pick the locks restraining them. However in some of the older texts I have read we are advised to relock the cuffs etc. after the escape so that the audience is left guessing. I also notice in most of the photographs of Houdini after his cuff/cell escapes, the manacles etc. are closed and in some cases linked together to form a chain. My question therefore is do you tell people you are picking the locks? Don't you feel this detracts from the mystery? My wife on seeing one escape artist said to me "Wouldn't it be easier to pull the key out of his sleeve rather than a lock pick?" Just my thoughts. Scott |
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johnpert Veteran user Ontario, Canada 322 Posts |
Not really into this aspect of magic. But I would like to get into the thumbtie escape idea.
Nevertheless, as a viewer, I prefer to see them still intact. If they are open, the only mystery is "how", a secret key likely. But with them closed there are many other questions that are unknown...like did he slip through them, did he melt through them and so on. Just my thoughts, john |
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Sniper New user 75 Posts |
I think a lot of people feel that if you hide yourself to escape from handcuffs and/or locks, you are simply using a key to release yourself. And they are often correct.
Norman Bigilow (sp?) was the first to "come out of the cabinet" and show people he DID use picks to escape. And I think his act was much stronger as a result. His Door Of Death is one of the best (and most dangerous) escapes ever done. John Novak (in his brilliant escape books) also suggests being open about the use of picks to release yourself. And I think they are both on the money. When I did escapes professionally, I used Novaks "Pick and Shim" presentation (in his first volume in the series) and got a very good response for it. Sn!per |
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Tony Chapparo Special user Albuquerque, NM 704 Posts |
It is indeed much easier to hide and use a working key for cuffs and locks (IMHO) then to pick them, I think presentation is more important than the means of escape.
Tony Chapparo
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Margarette Special user Memphis area 956 Posts |
OK, here's my two cents...for what it's worth. If an escape is performed under some type of cover, then using a key is fine...after all, who is going to see? Now, if an escape is done in the open, then using a key would not be that impressive! I was watching a video of an escape, and the guy had on several pair of handcuffs. Of course, his method of concealing the pick was rather unusual. I was impressed that he could pick/shim that many pair of handcuffs in such a short amount of time. Now, if he had just used keys, I would have been watching and saying "So what? Anyone can use a key to get out!"
Each method has its place, but when it comes right down to it, it all depends on showmanship! I have used both methods...a concealed key and a shim. I've got a set of lockpicks, and I am learning how to pick open locks. I don't think it's a waste of time! Especially with how many times I've locked myself out of my house! Margarette
The only stupid question is the one not asked.
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
This is why, of course, Conan Doyle believed Houdini could walk through walls. If he'd left cell doors open and cuffs unlocked it would not have left the same impression.
re Snipers comment: I think a lot of people feel that if you hide yourself to escape from handcuffs and/or locks, you are simply using a key to release yourself. And they are often correct. I've never polled people so I don't know whether the latter is correct or not, but I would have thought the way some people are chained it wouldn't seem likely they could access a key or manipulate it! And Scott, did David suggest a good way of switching? Paul. |
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Scott Special user UK 799 Posts |
Hi Paul,
As many have said before, simple is best. David told me that he had a box split into two compartments. Genuine cuffs in one side and fakes in the other. He would show the cuffs, collect them back in the box and then simply take out the fake duplicates to escape from. I also believe that at an outdoor escape i.e. underwater, he would leave a large board at the venue with all of the escape details displayed. This board would also have genuine cuffs, padlocks and chain to be used during the escape locked to various holes and eyelets in the board. On the day of the escape these would be removed and placed in the same split box and then the fakes removed one at a time during the handcuffing process. Mind you, saying all this, David was also an expert at opening cuffs and locks without a key but like he said even he wasn't daft enough to jump into a river wearing genuine handcuffs. Interesting question though Paul. I know you are a good all rounder but are you thinking about adding a few bridge jumps to your repertoire??? |
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Margarette Special user Memphis area 956 Posts |
Gimmicked vs. real...picking locks or using a hidden key...
What happens if you are challenged with, say, an Irish 8 or a Marlin Daley (see, Joseph, I have been reading)? If you stay in escapes long enough, eventually someone will challenge you...and it might not be the standard Peerless or Smith and Wesson cuffs that are the most popular today! You can't rely solely on using gimmicked cuffs and utilizing a switch sometime before the actual escape. You MUST know what you are doing when you do escapes! OK, so, I think I'm up to four cents, now! Margarette
The only stupid question is the one not asked.
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Scott Special user UK 799 Posts |
Hi Margarette,
Yes I agree, if you set yourself up as "The Man/Woman that nothing can hold" and do just an escape act as opposed to a magic act that contains escapes, then yes you are going to get challenged at some point. Now if you are on stage and doing an escape act that allows the audience to see that you are able to pick the locks on any handcuff, then once again yes, you need the knowledge and skills to pick any handcuff offered, or lose credibilty. This does of course make it neccessary to have a multitude of picks, shims, extension tools etc. at hand for those challenges. And this was my original point. Surely this visible picking of locks is what detracts from the mystery that led Sir Arthur Conan Doyle to believe that Houdini could de-materialize. You can't rely solely on using gimmicked cuffs and utilizing a switch sometime before the actual escape. You MUST know what you are doing when you do escapes! Margarette [/quote] Once again I agree but of course in a stage environment with a set act where you control what happens then this is easier than in the challenge environment. Two different senarios: 1. I am a magician who does escapes in my show. I walk into a pub and the guy behind the bar says "You're a magician, show me something". "OK," say I, "do you have a pack of cards behind the bar?" "Yeah sure!" "OK then pick a card." (easy) 2. I am billed as an escape artist, the man whom nothing can hold. I walk into a pub and the guy behind the bar says "You're an escape artist, show me something". "OK," say I, "do you have a pair of handcuffs behind the bar?" "Yeah sure, but only these old Irish 8's (bottle neck Marlin Daley's, Hiatt Plug 8's or whatever) given to me by my grandfather." Snap. "OK, show me how you get out of them." Could you do it? I know I couldn't. Just a thought Scott |
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The Great Zambini New user 37 Posts |
Hi all:
Three things to comment— for the moment. 1. I think Tony summed it up pretty well in his post: "I think presentation is more important than the means of escape." Personally, I never get hung up on method. Frankly I don't care. What I do care about is the presentation and how that translates into the entertainment value. Entertainment value is the bottom line. 2. With respect to being in a pub and being challenged, I never let the environment control me and my magic/escape act. I must have control over my environment. 3. I think it is wise to respect David DeVal's advice. That's it from sunny Florida—for the moment.
...Simply Amazing!
THE GREAT ZAMBINI |
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Margarette Special user Memphis area 956 Posts |
I am not saying to disregard Mr. Deval's advice. His opinions and advice should be respected. He has a lot of great advice out there... it's just with escapes, you can't
'cookie cutter' advise. What works for one will not work for another, and you have to do what is best for your type of peformance/personality/venue/experience. I have stated before that with escapes, one must remain in control of the situation. If not, that is a good way to get injured, or worse. However, if/when people find out you do escapes, eventually you will get challenged by a 'friend of a friend of a friend' who just happened to bring these cuffs to a party. You need to be prepared for this to happen.
The only stupid question is the one not asked.
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x-treem Inner circle 1133 Posts |
Though I am probably “beating a dead horse” here, I wanted to say that I have a very strict distinction between X-treem the entertainer and Shawn the person. It is that distinction that gets me out of 90% of my outside challenges. Thank the person for their challenge and give them one of two options:
1) Bring the cuffs to my next public show and I will escape from them at that time. 2) Hire me to do a show (I give a reduced rate for this) and I will escape at that time. My reasoning is straightforward: X-treem is the escape artist, and Shawn is a husband and father of two. The only time I have broken my rule is also one of my favorite stories to tell which I will post sometime tonight. On the subject of "To Pick Or Not To Pick", the best advice I have ever read came from Norm Bigelow. He said, “Do not waste your life learning to pick every lock out there, if that is the route you want to take then become a locksmith.” Here is how I work it. I have a white screen in front of me; the screen runs from my ankles to about six inches below my shoulders and is just wide enough to cover my body from side to side. I back light the screen with a spot light (ala shadow box) this gives the audience a glimpse of what I am doing but not the “how” or the “with what”. Again quoting Norm, “…let the audience draw their own conclusions as to what you are doing.” I do journey out from behind the screen for everything beyond handcuffs. My main reason for the screen is that, at times, members of my audience have been escape artists and there are little known techniques that I use in handcuff escapes that I and the artists who have shown me their “how to’s” would like to keep that way. One suggestion that would make it look like you are picking a cuff but you are using a key is a pair of handcuffs which utilizes a flat key. The audience does not know a pick from a key at that distance from the stage. Hope this helps. X
A direct from text adaptation : The Strange Case Of Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde Starring Mickey Rooney in his final role.
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RichardJones New user 14 Posts |
[This post is more of an article— I hope you can find the time to read it]
This discussion has rambled on through several different topics, so if I may return to the original question: Quote:
My question therefore is do you tell people you are picking the locks, don't you feel this detracts from the mystery. Well this depends on the image you are trying to create. The easiest way I can think to explain my view on this is to take an example that you fine magicians are familiar with. You have to face it, illusion is fantasy. However, escapology is a real life skill. That is to say, it really can be done. This is unusual for a magical art and means it has to be treated differently. Now one other example of a real life magical skill is a gambling demonstration. Consider these two possibilities: A) A performer somehow repeatedy dealing himself hands of four of a kind under different conditions. B) A performer exposing how gamblers really work— demonstrating the art of dealing seconds and bottoms and various false shuffles and how these skills can be turned into a players advantage. You can not fail to recognise what will stimulate the audience more— and what will gain you more respect. But lets take the comparison even furthur: What happens if, after showing how to deal seconds and bottoms, the performer has the four aces clearly placed into the middle of the deck which is cleanly squared and THEN proceeds to deal a requested number of hands and finds himself with all four cards? This becomes a moment of pure amazement for the audience. Here is what happens: The audience is given just enough information for it to think it knows what is happening. It starts to cotton on before its theories are completely blown. The impact is all the greater because they are trying to understand and have grasped the basic principles. The effect would not be as strong if the performer did the final piece out of the context of the exposed setting— however, if the performer had only exposed the actual methods, there would be no mystery. Then let's apply this concept to escapes; we want to build up a possible method in the audiences mind before blowing away that concept and astounding them at the same time. Here are some ways this idea could be applied: 1) The performer picks his way out of some regulation handcuffs in full view. He then lets some audience members chose a selection of cuffs from his collection and restrain him. He escapes by picking in full view. He then has a small cardboard box examined. It is seen to be completely empty and placed on a table. The performer's hands are examined and are empty. He is cuffed in just one or two pairs of cuffs which are also minutely examined. He places his hands into the box concealing just his forearms from sight and with no sound or sudden movements, removes his wrists in 30 seconds free of the cuffs. They too are removed from the box in the same condition they were found in— still locked. The audience cannot fathom what has just happened. They know the performer is skilled with cuffs because he can pick them but then he escaped when he is isolated from any kind of tool. They have no idea what has just happened. The cuffs are still locked— maybe he just pulled his wrists out— but he showed them that there is a bone on your wrist which prevents slipping the cuffs. There is your mystery. You have to work out your own method! 2) The performer starts in a similar way by showing his ability to pick cuffs. Then the keyholes of a pair of cuffs are sealed and marked by an audience member. In the same situation as above, the performer escapes and when the cuffs are brought out, they are interlocked. The cuffs must have been opened, but the performer had no tools and the keyholes are still sealed and the marks confirmed. And because the performer has displayed his knowledge through the picking and gained trust, the audience automatically assumes that no gimmicks are used. (Indeed, I wouldn't use gimmicks for these escapes, but the wonderful thing is they could be used because, as I say, the audience believes in you after your picking demonstration!) 3) The performer explains how many cuffs are keyed alike and how one key can open a host of beautiful bracelets. But he then locks an audience member in a pair of Speedcuffs (rigid British police cuffs which are connected with a solid bar rather than a chain). The keyholes face up the volunteer's wrists and he is GIVEN THE KEY and challenged to escape. He can not. He tries the key in his mouth, he tries various acts of contortion but has to give in. Getting his revenge by locking the cuffs on the performer in a similar fashion, the performer escapes. You can see— the audience thinks you can escape from some handcuffs just by using the key— then you show that it is impossible to get out even if you HAD the key. But then you do escape. Confusing isn't it? ------------------------------------------ Somebody mentioned Norm Bigelow and how his performance consisted of picking a multitude of items in full view. While I have a lot of respect for Norm's achievements and for creating a unique style that worked for him, I myself do not like this style. The reason is simple: If all you are going to do is pick items in full view, the audience WILL GET BORED because of the repetitiveness. He gets in, he picks his way out, he gets in, he picks his way out... The only way to combat the boredom is to make each escape more and more dangerous. To have severe penalties for danger. And this is what Norm did—if he did not pick a pair of cuffs in time, gun-powder would explode in his face, or a bed of knives would spring into him or he would suffocate. And this puts the focus in the wrong place. Just as Lennart Green says "When I perform I do not want you to say look at that man, isn't he amazing; I want you to say, isn't it amazing what can be done with a deck of cards." What you do should be amazing in its own right and should not rely on other factors. I hope I have shown you above how to go about showing the amazing things that can be done with a simple handcuff escape and how to create a giant crater of impact in the minds of your audience. After all, that is where you should be working— escapes should not be presented as eye-candy, they should be psychological (except for the occasional flourish) and I hope I have shown you how. I strongly believe that the correct combination of picking and hidden escapes will serve you best. Regards, Richard Jones |
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DavidEscapes Inner circle I'm Special! 1003 Posts |
Hi all
I wonder if we shouldn't be discussing a lot of the stuff here in the more protected area of the forums, i.e. secret sessions. There seems to be a lot more method being exposed here than maybe there should be. Have fun all Duncan
David Victor - The artist formally (and still occasionally) known as David Straitjacket.
My Website Add me on facebook |
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MagicalPirate Special user Shamokin, PA 828 Posts |
With something like 93% of the internet made up of porn, I don't really think the uninitiated are really sitting going through these threads so that our methods would be at great risk of exposure. I believe these open forums are a great chance for exchange of knowledge and information for those of us who graduated from the abyssmal selection of works at the library years ago.
I hope that an open forum like this remains around for a long time. I'm forty five and was relieved to read that John Novac didn't escape from his first strait-jacket until he was in his forties. Now I'm considering adding it to my show. Please keep it an open professional forum where we all can learn. Martin Blakley Redbeard The Magical Pirate
Martin Blakley, CSH, DASH, CMSA
http://www.thehypnoguy.com/HYPNORESOURCES http://www.docgrayson.com/ How To Sell Anything Online http://tub.bz/?r=1z Copyright to my own words retained 100%. |
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Ian McColl Inner circle 1493 Posts |
Hello to all, on the subject of lock picking, whether to or not is your own personal choice. However showing the audience has its limitations. Once they know (think) you pick all locks, the mystery is over no matter if you really do or not.
Norm Bigelow built and performed his gas chamber escape. From the outside it is a large squarish box with a viewing portal in the front. The top appeared to be locked by a large massive padlock. It looked formidable and I inquired of Norm how he suggested he opened the lock from the inside of the box to the audience. He replied he didn’t need to open this massive lock as there was a side door (known to the audience) and locked with a handcuff. To escape all he had to do was pick the handcuff on the trap door to escape. So what was the point of the large massive lock? Arthur Coglan of Australia (1980) did an escape from a 44 gallon drum (laid on its side) locked with 2 padlocks on either end of a metal rod. (The Rod did not unscrew.) The escape remains a mystery but for a few. There was no way to reach the padlocks by hand or with lock picks and this is what makes it a very entertaining brain puzzle. If you show the audience you pick locks, how will you explain more baffling container escapes? Just saying it's magic will be insulting to the audience who you have already given fundamental ideas of your methods. As to your audience thinking you have a key hidden on you, let them think that, but give them the opportunity to search you beyond a reasonable doubt. Add to the mystery and don’t detract from it. Is lock picking useful to the EA?? Lock picking is another tool in your armoury over locks and handcuffs. I have seen possibly the best handcuff opening by picking even though I wasn’t told it nor was it presented as a picking demonstration. The feat was amazing and couldn’t have been done with a key. Again there was mystery and entertainment. If picking wasn’t this person’s skill, this handcuff release wouldn’t have been done. This is not to say that lock picking is a must for the escape artist. It can however open the way for some real mysteries with your performance. A visible show of lock picking skill puts the focus on the performer and not their performance. So if you want people to see how good you are at lock picking, buy 20 and sit on stage opening them. Ian
handcuff keys https://www.facebook.com/groups/274871910110997/
old business https://www.facebook.com/Stockade-locksmiths-276492435716704/ |
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Scott Special user UK 799 Posts |
Hi all,
I am glad to see that my original post prompted a good discussion. I have thought about this long and hard and have made up my mind as to my own preferred performance method. Richard I was very impressed with your idea of showing the lockpicking and then blowing the theory out of the water. This could be worked to great effect especially for the press to build up a good underwater or locked room escape. You could go along the lines of "This is how some people think it is done (pick the handcuffs openly) but Arthur Conan Doyle was convinced that Houdini could dematerialize because he would do it like this..." (put your wrists handcuffed and inspected into a paper bag also inspected and then come out with the cuffs off but still locked). It is almost as if you are saying you make up your own mind but when I am stripped and search by a doctor and still escape then surely no picks or keys are involved. I do however agree completely with Ian's reply. I will stick to leaving them guessing. I would rather be remembered as the man who could dematerialize rather than the bloke who was good at opening locks. Incidently I have been speaking to Ian privately over the last few days and would like to say to everyone who is interested in escapes... buy all his stuff and pick his brains (pun intended) while you can, this man has a wealth of information and will share it if you show that you are truly interested. Hope I haven't opened the flood gates Ian but thanks for all your help. Scott Creasey |
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DavidEscapes Inner circle I'm Special! 1003 Posts |
Hi MagicalPirate
You Said... "I don't really think the uninitiated are really sitting going through these threads so that our methods would be at great risk of exposure. I believe these open forums are a great chance for exchange of knowledge and information for those of us who graduated from the abyssmal selection of works at the library years ago." This may be true, but this forum frowns, and I believe rightfully so, on the direct exposure of methods. Which has happened quite a few times on this thread. And indeed this section of the forums. I am new here and do not want to appear to be rocking the boat but I have noticed escape methods being discussed in a way which would not be tolerated if it was applied to other magic arts. Just my two cents... I await your flames. Duncan
David Victor - The artist formally (and still occasionally) known as David Straitjacket.
My Website Add me on facebook |
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AllThumbs Veteran user UK 375 Posts |
I too was saddened to hear of David's death. I can remember buying a couple of pairs of excellent gimmicked cuffs from him about 10 years(?) ago.
My opinion in the pick/not to pick debate is: escapes are primarily about showmanship. To be honest without it escapes are pretty boring affairs. Whether you use faked cuffs or non faked cuffs or gimmicked padlocks or not, the audience is not going to know and it won't affect the performance of the escape. The only thing you have to deal with is your own guilt! Sure if you want to become particularly skilled then you can spend some time learning to pick locks. You'll never know when it'll get you out of trouble. Having said that I would always recommend to someone starting out in escapology to buy a few pairs of regular cuffs of different types and learn how to escape with those using picks or shims. Does anyone know if anyone is taking over David's supply of escapology equipment or could suggest an alternative UK supplier? It's been some time since I did escapes and I am in need of new equipment. Regards Kris Sheglova
The above is all rubbish, except that which you chose to believe
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x-treem Inner circle 1133 Posts |
David's family will continue to produce his line was the last that I heard.
Two others are http://www.magicworld.co.uk and http://www.topsecretmagic.co.uk Nice to have another EA aboard.
A direct from text adaptation : The Strange Case Of Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde Starring Mickey Rooney in his final role.
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