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prospero Special user Elsewhere 572 Posts |
There has been, particularly in recent years, great amount of discussion in the magic community about the presentation of mentalism and magic, and consequently, the presentation of mental magic. I read somewhere (and have read it many more places over time) that mentalism can be presented as "real magic" whereas no matter how advanced and brilliant the presentation, close-up magic will never be able to be perceived as anything but a sound display of technical skill. "I see, it's very clever." The spectators assume, no, they know that the magician must employ some form of sleight-of-hand or other devious subterfuge to create the effects which he presents. In mentalism the spectator has nowhere to turn and the entertainer can convince his audience that he is creating these effects through psychic powers, psychological influence, muscle reading, or whatever he wishes his audience to believe.
Where do you think mental magic falls? A display of skill? Or a possible presentational flexibility: "real" magic? |
MarkFarrar Veteran user U.S.A. 376 Posts |
Of course, mental magic can be performed close-up too!
Seriously, many effects can be presented as "magic" or as "mentalism" or even as "psychology". My preference these days is to use a theme of perception / psychology and leave it open, and not to perform a display of "card juggling", for example.
Mark S. Farrar
Email: [email]MarkFarrar@TheMagicCircle.co.uk[/email] Web: www.MagicSquaresBook.com, www.RandMPublishing.com, www.TheDailyGoalMachine.com, www.ParvoBuster.com |
Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
Supernatural Mental Abilities VS Card Tricks.... That's how some people look at it.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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ALEXANDRE Inner circle 3024 Posts |
Or "enhanced" mental abilitites, something you might not be able to explain entirely but that you've been working on for years, and that everyone has to some degree.
I prefer to look at it as entertainment, in which case it matters little if it's Mentalism or Magic, as long as it's entertaining.
HERE'S A SECRET ...
http://www.lybrary.com/mystic-alexandre-m-354.html |
Eight Spades Elite user Ohio (northwest) 482 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-07-05 12:04, ALEXANDRE wrote: Exactly. My method is to do a nice blend of mental magic, without claiming or explaining anything. Let it be a mystery for them to view however they please. -Christian
"Tricks are only the crude residue from which the lifeblood of magic has been drained." -S.H. Sharpe
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
There are a lot of people who don't believe in the phenomena displayed by mentalists, although mentalists can still entertain these people. Mentalism won’t amaze them because they’ll just view the performance as a trick that they don’t understand.
Magic can still amaze these people if the effect is strong enough. It’s much easier for some people to temporarily dismiss their senses than it is to temporarily dismiss their beliefs. However, it is also true that relatively few people in the United States believe that magic is real. For people that are open to the phenomena portrayed by mentalists, mentalism is very powerful. A Gallup poll stated that approximately 30% of the U. S. population was open to the type of phenomena mentalists portray. Approximately 70% didn’t believe in it. For that reason, I think that magic appeals to a much wider audience. Despite the fame achieved by mentalists such as Uri Geller, Kreskin, and earlier Dunninger, none of these men achieved anywhere near the fame of David Copperfield, David Blaine, or earlier, Houdini. The magicians have greater longevity in the public mind, greater total numbers of fans, and I believe (although I don’t know for sure) greater income. However, all of the magicians I mentioned have performed mental magic routines at times. Houdini did this quite often.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Come again, Bill?!?
I remember distictly when Kreskin was the only mystery performer in the USA who was a "guaranteed draw." He was as much a household word from 1969-1972 as Copperfield was a few years ago, or Blaine recently. In the 1940s-50s, Dunninger was synonymous with "mindreader" to the public at large, and read the thoughts of Hollywood celebrities and major polititians. Even Fred Mertz on "I Love Lucy" quipped, in response to an inquiry, "Who do you think I am, Dunninger?!?" Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
Sorry Dr_Steven_Midnight, but I recall when Kreskin burst on the scene too. I watched him on TV on daytime and nighttime shows. He got both negative and positive reactions from people in and out of the media. The same is true of Geller.
Their wide fame was temporary and limited. Note I didn't say the mentalists that I named weren't famous at all, just that they weren't as famous as the magicians I named. All the hard data I've seen supports this view. Today, when I ask my 20 and 30 year old coworkers if they know who Kreskin is, very few of them have heard of him (actually, none of them so far, but I didn’t ask everyone, just a few people). These people are in engineering, marketing, and sales. They all knew all of the magicians I mentioned. In case I live in an isolated environment, I did a Google search. I also added Derren Brown to the list. Here are the number of hits for each performer copied directly from Google. (Note that a Google search using lower case characters matches all lower and upper case matches.) Results 1 - 10 of about 329,000 for houdini Results 1 - 10 of about 176,000 for "david Copperfield". Results 1 - 10 of about 90,500 for "david blaine" Results 1 - 10 of about 40,100 for "uri geller". Results 1 - 10 of about 34,700 for "derren brown". Results 1 - 10 of about 17,500 for kreskin Results 1 - 10 of about 5,020 for dunninger. Note that Houdini is the oldest and he got the most hits.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Keep in mind, though, that Copperfield and Blaine are also more recent. Time is a great memory duller, even if you were "there." In that respect, the data is a bit skewed.
Houdini really doesn't count; he's a LEGEND, with countless books, movies etc. constantly reminding us he existed. In that respect, he's on a par with Merlin. Steve Posted: Jul 14, 2004 8:52pm ------------------------------------------------ Which reminds me, what results did you get for Milbourne Christopher, Doug Henning, Andre Kole (outside the CCC) The Amazing Randi (outside of CSICOP) and Mark Wilson? Not being testy, actually just legitimately curious. I'd like to think that anyone who knows of Penn & Teller also knows of Randi. Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
The tremendous popularity of Houdini makes my point.
The reactions of those I know and my observations of the mass media have both helped to form my opinion. We might have to agree to disagree about this issue.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-07-13 21:43, Bill Hallahan wrote: I don't understand your logic here at all. Just because a chunk of a mentalist's audience might not believe that what he does it real, it does not necessarily follow that they won't be amazed. You stipulate that the huge majority of magicians audiences don't believe in real magic, yet are amazed. You then assume that the mentalists audience faces a choice: accept the feats as real or remain unaffected by them. I think this is a false dichotomy, and I wonder what evidence you have that it is so. Also, your research method doesn't support your statement that specific magicians have been more famous than specific mentalists. Rather, your evidence supports the proposition than mentalists fame has been in general less durable than the fame of magicians. The two issues may be related, but are not identical. Kreskin, in his heyday, was more famous than any other living magician in the United States. Likwise was Dunninger. In England, I think it is safe to say that Derren Brown is more famous than any contemporary magician. It is interesting and noteworthy that neither Dunninger, Kreskin, nor for that matter Alexander, W I Bishop, or other mentalists has had the durability of fame that a few magicians have had. Your speculation as to the cause has some merit, I believe. All I'm saying is that your arguments are incomplete insofar they assume that mentalists popularity has always been fringe. At various times that has been demonstrably untrue. --Chris Posted: Jul 16, 2004 12:16am ------------------------------------ Here is a link to an analysis of Gallup's poll regarding American's belief in various paranormal things as of May 2001. I wasn't able to find anything more current, and it appears that the Gallup organization tries to measure this sort of thing with several year long intervals, so there may not be anything more recent: http://home.sandiego.edu/~baber/logic/gallup.html In any case, the actual number of people who profess belief in ESP is about 50 percent, with roughly another 20 percent undecided. When it comes to belief in telepathy, about 35 percent profess belief, but there is a larger number of undecideds. The combined number of believers and undecideds for telepathy again is around 70 percent. To my mind, the more significant numbers are those that represent non-belief. In each case they are a substantial minority when compared to the combination of believers and undecideds. What does all this have to do with the viability of mentalism as a popular entertainment? I think it's a mistake to assume that the majority of Americans are unwilling to believe in the sort of things that mentalists do. So if mentalism remains in the fringe (and it does) there must be some other explanation for it. --Chris |
Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
Ok, I stand corrected on that one point, Chris. I can accept that someone can still be amazed that doesn't believe, although the experience is a qualitatively different type of amazement than that caused by a sensory experience. For magic, at least most of it, the spectator interprets their sensory experiences directly. That’s not to say there is never any thought when viewing magic. The spectator has to know the object was there to know that it vanished, well, unless they actually “see” it vanish. But a mentalist has to be able to convince the audience that he or she has obtained information that shouldn’t be available. This means the information is the key, and understanding the availability of information always requires thought.
After a mentalist’s trick, a non-believer is thinking, “How did he or she get that information?”, and after a magician’s trick, they’re thinking, “Wow, that vanished!” for an instant, before they finally think, “How did he make that look like it vanished?” There is no intermediate thought step for a non-believer when watching a mentalism performance. They won’t think, “Wow, he read my mind!”, followed by “How did he or she get that information?” If they think "He read my mind", or even "He might have read my mind", then, of course, they're not a non-believer. I do disagree about the popularity Kreskin and Copperfield. Kreskin was certainly in all the media in his heyday, and he was written up in newspapers and virtually all common magazines. I read them back then. But the same it true of David Copperfield. I maintain that more people in the world know of David Copperfield than ever knew about Kreskin. I can’t prove this. I admit, in the absence of a formal study, question like these are hard to resolve.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Bill,
First off, let me emphasize that I'm not pursuing this discussion just to be contrary. I'm doing it because I think you've brought up a fun (for me at least) and kind of provocative topic. I think you are greatly understimating the malleability of belief, or at the very least with the ability of mentalism or mental-magic to make people at least temporarily doubt their beliefs. Any half-way decent mentalist will have hundreds of anecdotes about people who claim to have been converted from skepticism to belief. It's important to put those sorts of comments into perspective. In my opinion they're seldom true conversions, and more a way for people to say "wow, you really shook me up." That ability to "shake people up," though is generally unique to mentalism, in my opinion. Even skeptics get shaken up. And I don't think they immediately ask themselves, "how did he access my information." I think just as often they ask,"how did he figure out what I was thinking." Or at the very least, say "wow, he read my mind! Wait a minute, how did he access my information." I just don't think its that much different from your description of the spectator watching the vanishing lady. If it were, I don't think I'd have a job. --Chris Posted: Jul 16, 2004 12:59am ------------------------------------- Bill, I was intending to add this to my previous post, but got to the edit button too late: As for Kreskin vs. Copperfield, you're probably right. (Although it's a celebrity deathmatch I'd love to see!!) But I'm not so sure the same would hold true with Copperfield vs Dunninger. BTW. when googling Copperfield, you do have to take into account the existence of the literary character. Speaking of google, Nostradamus outranks Houdini by a couple hundred thousand. If Houdini, who posthumously developed a legend well past his lifetime fame, gets to be classified as a magician, then Nostradamus gets to be a mentalist. --Chris |
Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
I’m not sure Nostradamus was a stage performer, but he was known as a prophet in his own time, so I’ll take him as a mentalist. I suspect his agent wasn’t very good.
I know mentalism performances can be very compelling evidence to some people, but there are those who won’t be convinced. Many people have learned to discount what they don’t understand. If they didn’t they’d think technology was miraculous (although in a way, it, and also all of nature is!) Of course, many people will be convinced that what they’re seeing is real, and many will wonder. It’s ironic, I’m writing generalities about peoples thoughts! Finally, people are certainly interested in psychic phenomena and just about anything strange and different. I used to listen to Art Bel’s show just to hear the people calling in. That was very entertaining.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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