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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
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On Feb 11, 2023, jhostler wrote: Reminder that I didn't write the Duchamp story, only posted for a reader that can't create a login (for some reason). The story was posted because some here (perhaps not you) seem to be reacting purely to the notion that a well-known member of a community would comment favorably on his own creations anonymously. My friend's point is that this is nothing new, nor is it some sort of moral or ethical issue. It wasn't meant to be a perfect analogy, only commentary on that single point. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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bangobango New user 23 Posts |
Rick Lax, just wanted to let you know that your Secrets of Magic video on Penguin is what got me into magic. I think you are a great teacher and an awesome performer. I also really enjoyed your six greatest card tricks video and your laptop video.
That being said, I really like Craig Petty, too, and hated listening to the podcast you referenced earlier regarding the Tenyo trick. I will say that to me it was obvious Craig respects you as a magician, but strongly disagreed with that Tenyo video. Anyways, just wanted to say thank you for those videos and thank you for speaking up on this thread. |
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bangobango New user 23 Posts |
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On Feb 12, 2023, JasonEngland wrote: First, you are assuming that because somebody else did this before that it is okay. I am not ready to concede the point that favorably promoting your work under a fake name is completely ethical. That being said, however, I don think many people would have a big issue with newguy's posts if he was just promoting his work. I think the problem lies in the fact that he was often 1. Responding to customer criticism as though he were a customer himself; and 2. Attacking other magicians under this pseudonym while promoting himself. His first post on this thread is indefensible. He trashed Petty's character in accusing him of ripping off this effect all while hiding behind a fake username. Some of the Weber defenders seem to miss this crucial point in all of this, and that's a crucial fact and certainly gives insight into the tone of the communications with Petty via email and why Petty might not have felt comfortable communicating with Weber directly. I mean, honestly, why would Trono be on the email at all? If this was all just an effort to reach out and discuss it, why would Weber include Trono in the communication? There is a saying "Never pick a fight with somebody who buys ink by the barrel." The 21st century equivalent should perhaps be "Never pick a fight with somebody with a respectable YouTube subscriber base." Those saying Petty should've handled this differently remind me of people defending a bully after he got hit in the mouth after making fun of the same kid one too many times. |
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jhostler Loyal user 278 Posts |
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On Feb 12, 2023, JasonEngland wrote: I was in the middle of replying to this when another post beat me to pretty much the same points. The twin notions that this is "nothing new" (esp. given the behavior's duration, stature of person assuming the alias, and character of his posts) and does not constitute a "moral or ethical issue" both smack of logical desperation. This is a prima facie case of a lapse in ethics and character. I don't see anyone isolating the anonymity part for criticism. |
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JonHackl Regular user Western Australia 198 Posts |
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On Feb 12, 2023, Sudo Nimh wrote: Denis kindly helped me with a small piece of research. I messaged him here and he said it's much better to reach him via the email on his website.
"Magic is the only kind of entertainment where 90% of the audience is trying to ruin it for themselves." - Pete Holmes
https://www.lybrary.com/ivy-p-925586.html |
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Mac_Stone Inner circle Miami, FL 1419 Posts |
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On Feb 11, 2023, Schlawiner wrote: This is some next level tinfoil hattery.... |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1866 Posts |
Glad to see you posting again Rick; I'd wondered what happened to you.
I'm sorry to hear of your troubles with the "gang". I've had my fair share of run-ins with them, too. There's more I wanted to say about that much earlier in this thread, but due to the highly explosive nature of what I had to say and the people it concerned, I decided against it. Anyways, it's good to see you back. Keep your chin up. |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
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On Feb 12, 2023, jhostler wrote: I don't see anyone isolating the anonymity part for criticism. They might not isolate it, but they very often LEAD with it in their criticism, which tells me (and the person who sent me the Duchamp story) that it's of great importance to them. It isn't to me. Maybe I'm just cynical, but there is an awful lot of pearl-clutching over promoting your own work anonymously here. Again, I don't do this - hell I barely promote my own stuff at all, but it means absolutely nothing to me that others do (I guess I just kind of assumed many people do this). I stopped grabbing quotes after a dozen or so pages. Jason Quote: “...it disgusts me beyond words to see Michael Weber on this thread pretending to be a fan of his own work…”
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
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On Feb 11, 2023, Schlawiner wrote: That's not exactly what I said. I said "at least" as early as 2007 (that's as far back as my emails regarding the newguy acct go). Might be up to a few years earlier than that when I first became aware of it. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Tim Cavendish Inner circle 1404 Posts |
Wow, you are ethically bankrupt.
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SlipperySnake Loyal user 243 Posts |
Just chiming in because I am primarily a lurker (the entertainment value of many on here is gold), but after a few cocktails, I feel bold enough to throw in mine two cents. First of all, glad to see Rick back here commenting. He truly is an asset to the community with his creative thinking of transforming older principles in new ways. While many have made it a mission to beat him down (deservingly so in some cases, with the exposure aspects he and Flom have done), it is hard to deny that he found a way in this day and age to thrive and put food on his table with his videos - to the jealously of many. Hopefully, he has/will take the exposure issues to heart and concentrate on providing more of his magical thinking in sharing his unique thoughts with our community. Life is about learning and growing as we go along. Second chances are deserved. Let's not scare him off again and see more of the great thinking he can provide...
(before I get beat up for saying this, I do not know him personally, I am not a sock account for him, and I side with Petty in his release, even if it was a Weber creation originally. Craig, just add him in a "special thanks" section for his work on the subject and lets move on. You obviously added to the effect with this release, and magic/art is always about moving things forward). |
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bangobango New user 23 Posts |
So much wrong with this it's hard to know where to start. I don't want to spend a long time explaining why, so I'll just post a quick example:
Just because Wife X doesn't care that her husband is a philandering, lying, and abusive POS doesn't mean that it is okay for husbands to be that way in general. |
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mike donoghue Inner circle 1295 Posts |
It would have been nice to re visit this topic after a few days & find that people were now just talking about the effect & NOT all of the politics that go with it .
The Café will never change an old saying ‘Fish Wives ‘ comes to mind . With all of the atrocious in the world can we just move on & discuss the routines? |
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mike donoghue Inner circle 1295 Posts |
Atrocities as well ha
Predictive text |
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sbstgo New user 17 Posts |
Hey Rick, only wanted to thank you for your contributions. As a hobbyist and newcomer into magic during pandemic, this had been a great influence in starting and getting fascinated by this hobby.
In your recent free video with Flom over Penguin you picked up some interesting presentational ideas that I'd like. Developing that further could be really interesting. This was one of the rare releases that are much more relevant and interesting for the performance situations of hobbyist too. |
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chosen1 Regular user lots of places 123 Posts |
Hello Mr. England.
I do want to make sure it’s known that I ask this question with all the respect in the world and that you have earned by sharing your brilliant thinking over the decades. You’ve given more and more generously than most. This whole thread is tense and I’m really hoping my tone comes off as a sincere question and not baiting in any way. 1. I think we can safely assume that just because something has been done before and even often doesn’t make it right. Our own country has a long history of systemic issues that we are desperately trying to erase now. I feel like that argument can be safely removed. Those companies can be wrong for what they’ve done and the proliferation of those actions doesn’t make it right. 2. My genuine question is this… if in this community which is so small it’s ok for people to make as many fake accounts as time and interest will allow and spread self perpetuating “hype” and that is not even ethically ambiguous then how can we trust any review at all? And if we can’t trust any reviews haven’t we lost a valuable tool in helping to decide which products are best suited for us? We’re all pretty used to dealer “hype” but that’s out in the open we know they are trying to sell us, if we now can’t trust that any review is from an actual customer then we really have nothing. We have dealers trying to sell us and reviewers trying to sell us too. The numbers in magic are so small that a single, driven individual can drown out quite a bit of negative press in a single afternoon. What do you suggest we do? Yes we can use past reputation as a solid guide, but then how does a new creator build any momentum? I promise this question is genuine. At the moment I’m having a hard time understanding your stance, but I trust there is an angle to it I have yet to consider, and am very open to hearing it. Best, Brandon
We should all be in a constant state of wonder
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Consultthemind1 Regular user 185 Posts |
I wonder how many people actually believe that Eric, Jason, and others were free to post on that account.
Why haven't they come back, logged in on the "Newguy" account and posted on there? Surely if they were all account sharing, that would be the way to post? It would have given their "statements" credibility. Instead, they have visited the Café and posted on their own accounts... Let me repeat that... Their own accounts. So, it is either that they don't have access to that account or they use their own accounts and only jumped onto the Newguy account when they wanted to cause drama or promote. Therefore Eric's earlier claim (copied verbatim) "if we appeared to be a “new guy” in magic, we might side step a lot of the petty arguments and flame throwing that happen in all public magic forums" is moot. Jason creeps in, and though his post is simple in nature, there are a few things there that show you much about his character and the character of his/ their peers. His "friend" who, instead of saying, "I think you should apologise and fix the situation", smugly sits there and cites a story about an artist who did the same thing as a justification as to why it's okay. Jason, get some new friends. Each time someone new posts in an attempt to dilute the situation, they end up making it more offensive. Weber, I know that you are reading this; I know because we have (only a couple of days ago) shared messages (on here), and you were polite and straightforward. Apologise publicly and start paving a path to move forward from this instead of hiding in the shadows and having your friends come forward and try to justify your behaviour awkwardly. Serious question, are you guys actually buying this side story? David. |
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Morganjj Regular user 168 Posts |
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On Feb 12, 2023, JasonEngland wrote: If your friend thinks the Duchamp story points out that false reviews of your own material are not in any way a moral or ethical issue they're wrong. And silly. It's a legal, moral and ethical issue. No question. But Duchamp was a genius who changed the face of his field, as well as a very playful gent. Weber is ... newguy. |
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shakuni Inner circle 1170 Posts |
Wow, I was so wrong about too many people in magic.
Welcome back Rick Lax. |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
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On Feb 12, 2023, Consultthemind1 wrote: I can help you with that: Because it wouldn't be the evidence you seem to think it would be. By the time this became public knowledge, anyone could have been given the password and been told to "go post as newguy so they'll all see!" If we HAD done that, the criticism would be: "I bet you guys just now got the password and you're trying to convince us all after the fact." Quote:
Jason creeps in, and though his post is simple in nature, there are a few things there that show you much about his character and the character of his/ their peers. His "friend" who, instead of saying, "I think you should apologise and fix the situation", smugly sits there and cites a story about an artist who did the same thing as a justification as to why it's okay. I'm not sure why everyone thinks my friend posted that as a justification for something. It was an observation that others have defended their own work in front of their peers anonymously, and in some cases with far-reaching impact (in the case of Duchamp and the art world). It wasn't presented to me as "Duchamp did it so it's okay." If you read at as that, that's on you. I've re-read the story several times now since this has been brought up a number of times, there isn't so much as a hint of that thinking in the text of the story. Can we put that one to bed now? I'm curious, what other things have you found that show you "much about my character?" I backed up Eric's claim that the newguy acct had a "community" aspect to it and I relayed a story about a similar "anonymous defense of your own work" story that was relayed to me in a "stuff like this has been going on for a long time" sort of way. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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