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leipzisch Inner circle 1425 Posts 
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On Feb 12, 2023, qkeli wrote: That's page 28 of the thread. Here's a quote from Craig on page 1 of the same thread: "Hi guys. Sorry I have been late joining this thread. I have just finished my third illusion show today and I am quite knackered. I have been performing this effect for many many years. It always gets killer reactions." You see, once Craig got found out, 'many, many years' magically became 'two years'. So he was being dishonest one way or another. In this thread, I'm not on Potty or Wibbler's side. I'm on the side of honesty and ethical behaviour. |
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Intrepid Inner circle Silver Spring, MD 1281 Posts
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On Feb 12, 2023, leipzisch wrote: I could be wrong, but I generally like to give everyone the benefit of doubt and sincerely hope they realize the hardship and hurt they have caused others and do the right thing by making amends for their past actions. The proof will be how they response after reflecting on this. If they continue to try to rationalize the deceptive marketing actions, then no.
Bob
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Morganjj Regular user 169 Posts
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Qkeli/leipzisch - both of you seem really keen to keep the focus on something that
1. Happened a decade ago 2. That Craig has owned and apologised for. A lot. 3. That Craig has made no attempt to hide. 4. That Craig has repeatedly referenced as something that caused great distress and which he'd like to move on from. As if it's some kind of hidden secret. It's not, it's all out there. If the point you're *trying* to make is that people should suffer eternal shame and never be able to move on from their past, then that's all good. But I don't think it makes for a very good defence of 'newguy' if that's what you're trying to get at. I would hope that, with ownership, apologies, understanding and a change in behaviour, 'newguy' would not have to carry the cross of this situation for the next decade. You should hope the same. We all should. If there's no opportunities for growth and change then we're all in trouble. |
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NYCJoePitt Special user 561 Posts
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I am thrilled to see Rick Lax show back up. I’ve always loved his magic and his personality. I hope he finds a way into producing some more magic for us. He has contributed some great effects.
I’ve also found Craig’s magic to be pretty decent as well. He tends to personally overshare a bit much for my taste. But I take what I like and leave the rest behind. I’ve found the behavior and the continued postings of this “magic mafia” to be of the sleaziest nature. And while I wouldn’t say I’m boycotting them, I certainly have no intention of buying anything else from any of them (and future admitted or exposed members) until they come across with an apology. And if you have to ask me “for what?” You haven’t been reading the 46 pages of this thread. 
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SoloDoubleAct Regular user North Carolina 110 Posts
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On Feb 12, 2023, Sebastian B wrote: This thread has me paranoid about quoting people, due to the abundance of suspicious accounts, but regardless: I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. I know who I will be patronizing going forward and who I won't. Nothing is beyond forgiveness but also you have to vote with your wallets & act with your heart. |
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ricklaxmagic Special user West Bloomfield, Michigan 690 Posts
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On Feb 13, 2023, Morganjj wrote: Yes to this! Even if the Magic Mafia was right (which they're not), 'Eternal Suffering' is not the punishment. In fact, when somebody apologizes and explains themselves and changes their ways and credibly tells you that they've suffered depression as a result of the offense....that's it. I don't know 'exactly when' the comments should stop, but certainly after the 4 points you describe. I think those who have suffered bullying or shame or being put down are more sensitive to this sort of thing, and to us it seems like basic humanity, but if you've always been part of a mob and never a victim to it, maybe you don't even see those factors as important. |
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bubbles Regular user The 5th Dimension 103 Posts
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46 pages and zero apologies from newguy about pretending to be his own biggest fan for 20 years.
46 pages and newguy's buddies throwing temper tantrums about being asked if they condone that behavior. 'I'll answer but NOT when you want me to' . . . Wild. |
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da5id Loyal user Dublin, Ireland 268 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 13, 2023, bubbles wrote: right? They have been engaging in consumer fraud here and elsewhere as their standard practice. Fraud. |
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disgruntledpuffin Special user i have nothing to say about my 543 Posts
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Other than confirming that several people had access to the Newguy account and mentioning a story relating to anonymous self praise, Jason hasn't been involved in this.
I don't see how he owes anyone any kind of apology or explanation for Webers actions. I don't even understand why he should be expected to offer an opinion on Webers actions. Being friends with Weber does not make Jason either "magic mafia" or responsible for what happened here. Jack |
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Consultthemind1 Regular user 185 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 13, 2023, disgruntledpuffin wrote: There’s a bit more to it than that. When he was offered by “newguy” to access the account and post Jason said, “Don't recall if I ever took newguy up on the offer, but it's very possible.” In his own words it’s “very” possible he did. That aside, he knew that account was being used for exactly what it was being used for. I know because I’ve got the messages. Jason tailed off his message with a quote that seemed to justify Weber’s behaviour. No one knows what he’s going to post on here yet, so maybe he has something to justify - maybe not. David. |
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The Unmasked Magician Inner circle If only I didn't have a wife and a kid I would have MUCH more than 3265 Posts
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I think we can all agree that Sudo did the brave and right thing by speaking up. But it’s also good to realize that a number of magicians, Jason amongst them, have been witnessing others faking independent reviews, attacking others, etc and not do anything about it. That does make you a moral accomplice in my opinion. And Sudo wasn’t having that, which I applaud him for.
Please check regularly if you are becoming the type of magician Jerry Seinfeld jokes about. (This applies to mentalists as well.)
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 2203 Posts
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Hi Rick, it is good to see you back; a small silver lining to this ugly mess.
I think the actions of the magicians associated with the "newguy" account tell us a lot about the lack of respect that some professional magicians have for amateur magicians (a small minority, thankfully). Let's face it. It's the casual and dedicated hobbyists that keep the magic industry afloat. Using sock puppet accounts on The Magic Café to promote your own product or, worse still, engage in cyberbullying is shameful. Sadly, I doubt the people involved will have the bravery to apologise directly for their behaviour. However, I'd be willing to forgive them if they did. After all, we all make mistakes. What defines us is how we atone for them. It saddens me greatly that some big names, magicians that I've respected for years, are caught up in this debacle. I think the amount of hostility aimed at Jason England is unwarranted. Yes, he admits that he knew about the nature of the account years ago. But, at that point, it was more benign in nature. I've always found Jason to be a kind and generous member of the magic community. He doesn't owe us an explanation or an apology. But, on the other hand, Michael Weber would do himself a big favour if he offered both and admitted wrongdoing. I help teach a university module that encourages students to use principles of transmedia storytelling to produce an applied web project that explores the use of social and multimedia as a form of artistic expression. This often involves students creating anonymous (or fake) online profiles. We discuss the ethics (and dangers) of such behaviour and the pros and cons of anonymity online. This kind of behaviour is very far removed from the activity we've seen recently from the "newguy" account. To me, this is a classic case of the online disinhibition effect. It also sounds like some of the bad actors involved have elements of the dark tetrad in their personalities (Machiavellianism, narcissism, psychopathy and sadism). If this is true, it might be better that they're not part of The Magic Café community. Hopefully, the discussion this thread generates will lead to positive changes within our small community. Marty |
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disgruntledpuffin Special user i have nothing to say about my 543 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 13, 2023, martyjacobs wrote: If all you're going to post is sensible, reasonable comments, no one will play with you. |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 2203 Posts
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LOL. I'll try and be more unreasonable in my next post!
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equivoque Special user 898 Posts
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Maybe we should all stop arguing and attacking others and let the creators of both effects work it out. They may just have to agree or disagree. If you agree with Craig, buy his product. if not, wait for the other product to hit the market or dig up that the August 2012 edition of Genii and get crafty.
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Winnes Elite user 500 Posts
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Weber puts out some overhyped (imho) filler/garbage but also some absolutely amazing material. I hate the term “EDC” but by far the best thing I carry with me is a Weber item that I would rank as one of my favourite purchases in the last x number of years that has, ironically, had very little discussion or hype about here. The fact that he releases such great material gives him a bit of a licence to realise some overhyped crap imho but not a licence to behave like newguy did. Jason’s belief that because he releases good material he should be allowed to act like an underhanded bully is a bit of a stretch, to be charitable.
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The Unmasked Magician Inner circle If only I didn't have a wife and a kid I would have MUCH more than 3265 Posts
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What strikes me the most is how Jason blatantly condones the fake reviews and shows contempt for people who believed them and bought stuff based on them. And also how he doesn’t acknowledge any difference between calling someone out and long and persistant bullying. Seems like he thought things were ok like they were. He respected and condoned the omerta in a mafia-like way. And still believes that that is no big deal. Sad.
Please check regularly if you are becoming the type of magician Jerry Seinfeld jokes about. (This applies to mentalists as well.)
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Darkness Inner circle 1714 Posts
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Jason you probably should have remained silent.
What weber did was unethical but that’s acceptable because he’s a good quality magician?! And Jason doesn’t care about others and f” those people he owes them nothing not even to simply agree to what is moral! But isn’t this a public forum and a heated debate? Why engage if you are not willing to be entirely transparent? Of course people would expect you to agree to the obvious. Why didn’t you tell weber and friends it’s not cool how they are using that account why not stand up for community this was more than a marketing shill. Classic description of sociopathic behaviour. Apparently “benign” in nature so it’s all good.. And Michael Weber are you not professionally bound to an ethical and high moral standard being a lawyer and person overall (lol that’s funny)? Is that why you can not officially and publicly admit fault? Probably. But apparently according to some it’s just a little 20 year “mistake” we should all hold hands now and sing. It’s more serious and disturbing than that. |
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gumbimagic Veteran user Too busy performing to have more than 327 Posts
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Wait! Nobody commenting on Mac_Stone using weber with two b’s? Just like newguy…
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color-changing screen New user 6 Posts
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Jason mentioned that not all the Amazon reviews are legit.
Well, this only holds true for the past. Things have changed a lot now. I happen to be working for a company that sells its products on Amazon, which makes up for at least 90% of our annual income in overseas market. Last year, we launched 5 products on Amazon, got thousands of reviews. None of them are fake or rigged. In fact, "posting fake review" or "having a customer that you know well post nice review for you" is a big tabu for any amazon seller right now. Nobody, or at least the majority of the sellers, dares to do this anymore. Why? Because Amazon has a zero-tolerance policy about this right now. They will shut down any shop that did this, without hesitation. And it's for a good reason. |
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Posted: Feb 12, 2023 11:48 pm 
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