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meilechl Special user 657 Posts |
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On 2004-07-28 14:58, Tom Cutts wrote: You want me to belive that you really think that if I teach someone the Vernon Wand Spin or Marlo's Acrobatic Aces I'm stealing from their heirs? Are you serious? |
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JeffTell New user New Jersey 5 Posts |
The ball vanish is Mora's, and the wand spin is something drummers use.
The least we can do is remember the innovators. Which is why it makes sense that some folks here keep harping about reading the old books. |
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meilechl Special user 657 Posts |
Why is it in The Magic of Dai Vernon?
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el toro Veteran user Across the atlantic 325 Posts |
Interesting discussion, and I share "chrisrkline"'s view on this. Why is it ethical to sell an effect, but not to give it away for free ? If that's the case, there must be a lower limit for the price to be ethical ?? It is all about MONEY ! The inventors of tricks want to make as much money as possible (of course, don't we all?) If you want to keep your invention a secret, then DON'T PUBLISH IT ! Keep it for yourself and make money PERFORMING it. And to my understanding there is no copyright on methods. To say that I cannot teach someone Vernons wand spin, because Vernon didn't give me permission is ridiculaous.
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Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
I can understand where Meilechl is coming from because he is a teacher. I spent years as a university professor. Teaching is something I love too. However, the capacity to teach something is not the same as owning that something (idea, technique, piece of music, medical procedure, etc.) that we teach nor does the capacity to teach give us any rights beyond presentation skills. Even our testing and grading may be subject to someone else's standards. Some even have no choices about who become their students or what qualifying standards or preparations are required of them.
One of the best parallels I can give between teaching and magic as intellectual property is the fact that the new technology for teaching is via TV, video and CD. Who should own the rights to them and their repeated use, especially for money? I will tell you in a heartbeat that the better professors either totally refuse to teach under circumstances in which the lectures are recorded or expect to be paid every time the recording is accessed. They consider the lecture as intellectual property. They make no claim to own or even know who owns the content. However, the professors own their presentation. Textbooks are not free because of the production costs of printing that are incurred. It is because of the content that the prices are high. That content has owners who made sacrifices in an effort to provide a stream of income to themselves and their heirs. It is certainly a business! (This is even true of textbooks used in teaching religion!) Why is a magician any less permitted to cultivate the fruits of his labors? The citizens and IRS even have a stake in it. It is taxable! There are teachable resources that are in the public domain. The contributors of those ideas, techniques, procedures, etc. have lost the monopoly in the income streams for those intellectual properties because of the passage of time. An idea or product is not protected from scavengers forever. But it is only fair that the creator be given the first opportunity to make productive use of it. Product development is neither free of costs nor guaranteed useable. Those with no investment logically should have no rights to the initial benefits of that effort. Perhaps he has never taught in industry. Most teachers have not. In productive societies with commercially productive industries, it is very common that the “teachers” either own what they are teaching or have very restrictive contracts that limit who they teach and how much. Of course, there is the agreement to not compete within the industry too! These rights are bought and paid for just like a cemetery plot. (My areas are Marketing, Management, and Finance. Some of the "stuff" I own and more of it I do not. Better universities in these business fields lag commercial practice in productive industry by at least fifteen years for a very good reason. They don't have access! They can't afford access. They do the next best thing by trying to have the professors on board who own the intellectual property and who do know what the university doesn't have and the direction things will be going. My fulltime pay as a university professor teaching both undergraduate and MBA students was about 30% of what I was paid in industry part-time for teaching advanced stuff. I taught college because I enjoyed teaching and working with ambitious students. But it’s no match for owning the “stuff” to teach.) Often teachers are the delivery boys (me too) of someone else’s product. Usually that is all they are trained and paid for. That is fine until they steal. Then they are the same as any other employee who steals the assets of the business. Law in the USA and the many other advanced societies of the world also prosecutes them. The right to teach is not the right to teach just anything any more than the capacity to use a gun with deadly force gives one the right to do so. We are actually encouraged to create our own contribution to the field. Freedom isn’t free. We have dues to pay. Riches are certainly not automatic but they are certainly available to those who contribute and invest. Being a parasite in an art is a choice. Host animals have rights too! Continued theft of intellectual property will carry us back to the point where only the wealthy can afford it. Because to protect himself, the artist will have to only teach one-on-one as it was before. The property is not the book or DVD, it is the content. Bob Magic By Sander |
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meilechl Special user 657 Posts |
I like your post, Bob. Well thought out and interesting. There's one point, however, that you've neglected to touch and that is the difference between teaching for free or for money. What's your opinion on the matter?
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Hoelderlin Regular user Turin, italy 112 Posts |
An interesting article on this topic, from the point of view of an author:
http://www.online-visions.com/krystal/0501kenton.html
Hölderlin (Massimo Manca) - Circolo Amici della Magia - Turin - Italy.
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Kihei Regular user 137 Posts |
From and uneducated view...Are newly marketed effects copywrited? Are props patented?
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Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
Meilechl,
Thank you for your comments. The idea of "teaching for free or teaching for money” is one of those great misunderstandings between teachers and non-teachers. Non-teachers frequently assume that teaching is for the money. Personally, I feel like that is rarely true. Almost any other job would pay more and offer more financial security and opportunity as a career. I often joked about working hard so I could afford to be a professor. (I wasn't joking!) Working as a marketing/management consultant for service industry normally paid better for four hours work than a professor makes a week at a university and the respect factor is much higher. I have an investment in my training and experience. By comparison to what industry will pay for it, teaching is for free. There is also the fact that teachers have expenses too. Why can't it be an honorable way to make a living? The cultural answer in the USA to that is that teaching is expected to be for free. One of my mentors told me almost daily, "Success is a trust to be administered." He sold me! And there have been plenty times when I taught for free. In some cases, someone else charged for my “free teaching”. As an entertainer, the same holds true. The real mark, to me, of a true entertainment professional is that when asked for help, the first thing offered is himself. (I found that true of real cowboys too.) It is not true of all those claiming to be in the fields. But not everyone who claims to be in a field of endeavor is a contributing member. Some are opportunists parasites. It is a fact of life. Mother Nature passes out all kinds of protective coloration intended to deceive the indiscriminate victims. Especially there, knowledge is power. There can be another face on "teaching for free or teaching for money". That is that there can be a charge for being exposed to the teacher and that is not the same as paying the teacher. It is indeed a charge for an opportunity to gain knowledge. I'm very much in favor of that. When the recipient has no investment in the opportunity the value of the offering is often treated that way too. I won't get into how much the investment should be and making the coffee is often acceptable, but I have major problems in starting a lesson with something of value for nothing in return. That teaches irresponsibility and rewards it. Teaching is not advertising! Advertising by definition is a paid form. A common practice among professional entertainers when performing for a charitable cause is to insist that if any entertainer in the show is paid, they are too. Then the entertainer frequently turns the check over and signs it back to the charity. That is the way "something for nothing" is avoided professionally. Owners of intellectual property can also do this. In the case stealing someone else's intellectual property, the rightful owner is not given that opportunity. Money is not the issue. It is a case of property rights. We are allowed to give what is ours to give for free. We are not allowed to do that with other peoples' things. Creative people are generally very generous with others. Bob Magic By Sander |
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Dennis Online New user Ohio 42 Posts |
Is there not a difference between intellectual property and skills?
If I copy a DVD, use someone else's patter word for word or make a duplicate of a magic box using the same colors and design, I am certainly stealing intellectual property. If I learn how to make a silk disappear and reappear in a clear balloon, then even if I learned it from a video, it is now a skill I possess. There is no reason I shouldn't be free to teach it to someone else. There are thousands of tricks available at the public library. I've seen the Tarbell books on library bookshelves, Mark Wilson's book and many more. My library has Tony Hassini's video series. All free to watch and learn. It is illegal to make copies of these things, but the knowledge, once acquired belongs to the student. If I want to make a Zombie Ball, I may not be able to call it a "Zombie Ball," (is that name trademarked?), but I can make one because I have that knowledge of how to do it. I can also make one for a friend, for free or for payment. And, if mine is better than the original, I may sell a lot of them. If mine is cheaper than the original, I may sell lots of them. That is called "free enterprise." You know, like automobiles. Chevrolet can't make a "Taurus," but they can make cars that look similar (not identical), work on the same principals of automotive technology, and even sell them. No, I don't condone trademark infringement or copyright infringement. There are laws to protect the owners of intellectual property, but in a free enterprise enviroment, there will always be people making products cheaper, better or capitalizing on other's ideas. As magicians and businessmen, we need to work together to eliminate the counterfeiters, but as long as you can buy a decent floating table for $300, there will be magicians who exercise their legal and moral right not to buy a Losanders. Get over it. Let's quit whining about how we wish things were, and focus on how they are and how to make them better.
For free articles on magic and marketing, check out http://www.bellaonline.com/site/Magic
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I quit whining, and took most of my work PRIVATE years ago.
Not for a free market. Mostly not for sale. Till folks stop selling unauthorized copies... folks are not gonna see much of my stuff around. Del Ray took most of his magic with him. Think about it. All that lost, not even in a book because he got sick of folks copying. Do as you will. Magic will progress, it might not make much progress in the open market.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dennis Online New user Ohio 42 Posts |
Here is an interesting website from Ellis and Webster. It shows the originals and the knock-offs. Sadly, most knockoffs are inferior in quality, price-motivated. For this reason, I purchase the originals - not price, but quality is the motivator for my purchases. http://www.magicunlimited.com/magic_fakers.htm
The pros will always buy the best - you can tell the quality of the performer by the quality of his props. By the way, Ellis & Websters DVDs - are great!
For free articles on magic and marketing, check out http://www.bellaonline.com/site/Magic
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Does this mean some folks approve of unauthorized reproductions if the quality of the products is better than that from the authorized manufacturer?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Schismatized New user 58 Posts |
I don't agree with the policy of everyone should learn magic even though they might not have enough money. it just doesn't work that way. you start doing that then everyone who cant afford a exotic sports car should have one. and on and on. I mean I'm a teenager and I don't have a job. I cant afford to buy all dvds and card college books, etc. But I am still learning. not because my parents or friends help me out. I mean there isn't even a magic shop I know of in my general 50 mile vicinity. but I'm learning because of libraries, magic clubs, books. If your too poor to afford the 8 dollar RRTCM book I just bought at a book sale, you have worse problems than learning magic.
just my 2 cents. thanx. |
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mrbuzzsaw New user 8 Posts |
I can see the point on both sides of the fence on one hand you ceate a dvd and market it to all for profit. but there is the delema a magician is sworn never to give away the ghost. so we have a problem how do you as a magician hold true to your promiss never to tell while you are putting out a dvd doing just that?
now on the other hand if you don't tell someone the art dies. now comes the act of Piracy. now I understand the menace of piracy "Oh man this is bad news everyone can just take it". but here is the reality if the thing. Yes they can download it I guess. but the percentage of people doing so is small dispite what you may be thinking. most who do so would never buy the dvd anyway. so the profit lost argument goes out the window in most cases. now you got say 100 who download it and watch it. ok now what?? for one thing they ruin it for themself how dumb is that? (A self imposed Exile from wonderment.) as anyone here knows having a dvd on coin minipulation does not = being able to do it. the fine print on most magic should read if you don't practice it you are gonna suck at it. most of these people will watch it and fart around a few times and give up. and the only result is magic lost to them. so it is bad mojo for them. Not knowing is what makes it special I have had friends show me a Trick and follow up by offering to show me how it is done so I can use it and I flat out said No. not cuz I did not want to use it but due to the fact I liked it so much I did not want to spoil it before I could see it again. I have Dvds at home but I wont let me daughter watch them. simply put I love watching her 5 year old jaw drop at the sight of magic. I can do the most simple thing and she freaks. Why would I spoil that for her??? I for one will continue to support people who produce this material. as they deserve it for their hard work. |
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sidesteal New user 12 Posts |
IMHO - I think that it could be time to implement an EULA on Magic products like Bob Kohler does on his Holdout System.
It could put people off piracy altogether if they had to sign and send away such an agreement. just a thought, |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-07 10:55, sidesteal wrote: Do YOU have a license (ELUA) for the Fitch/Kohler Holdout? Would you accept books and materials under such a license?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Laszlo Csizmadi Special user From Hell 868 Posts |
I'm totally agree with Peter Loughran. Magicians work hard to create new illusions put time, money in and they ripped off by people who share pdf, files videos. I have two new large stage illusions and I'm afraid to talk about it with anyone. One of my illusion I'm 100% sure no one did before but the other I'm not sure because I saw similar one. I asked on the forum (and on PM)where can I look after it but didn't get much help. I'm pretty sure there is some magician, builder who won't shows their illusions because they don't want to be ripped off and people never will see their illusions.
Laszlo |
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rossmacrae Inner circle Arlington, Virginia 2475 Posts |
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I'm also of this opinion. Magic is an art like all others and shouldn't be the exclusive property of the rich. Let's see ... so if someone can't afford to pay you for a performance, they should just stiff you? If someone cannot afford to buy a trick you develop, they should steal it? If you take your best routines and agree to teach them (live, via video, in a book, whatever) so you can make a living from the creative work you've done (and the expense you've incurred), others should profit instead of you? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-07 21:10, laci200 wrote:...I'm pretty sure there is some magician, builder who won't shows their illusions because they don't want to be ripped off and people (other magicians) never will see their illusions. Hofzinser did not appreciate copyists, nor did Germain, nor did Del Ray... John Cornelius, Steve Dusheck, Peter Kane... Some access to unpublished material and the trust of those who create new things motivates me to be protective of their secrets and also to be uncomfortable around those who are not so protective of their trusts. The question as I see it is what to do with the works of those who have copied and continue to defend a right to copy the works of others.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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