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Matt G New user Boston, MA 77 Posts |
I honestly think you're just egregiously overreacting to spectators on the internet flinging garbage at the wall and hoping it sticks. Much like now, spectators are familiar with marked cards, rough & smooth, hell even chips in the cards...any "find a card" trick can be explained with a gimmick if they are trying to be adversarial. Who cares?
The faro shuffle has been around for literally 300 years. It's taught in Close Up Card Magic and tons of other seminal works; if the magicians you talked to weren't familiar with the concept, that says more about the magician than the literature. If you Google "sleight of hand" "cards" your first result will bring you here: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/sleigh......d-moves/ Takes 3 seconds of effort, can probably "explain" 95% of card magic they will ever see. "Oh, the magician palmed the card he needed before I shuffled them, then he did a double lift to show me that the card isn't on top." Whether that's right or not, the spectator will always "know" that's how they did any pick a card trick. Put it this way. I would say if you took a random sampling of 100 people, 50 would know that cutting the cards doesn't actually change their sequence, 30 would say they are familiar with the concept of a double lift, 20 would say they are familiar with the concept of a break, 15 are familiar with a card force, and somewhere between 1-5 max would say they are familiar with the concept of a faro/perfectly controllable shuffle. Of those 1-5, I bet 1 knows that you can return a deck to the original order with 8 perfect out faros. Maybe. Probably not, but maybe. Perhaps we found the guy who follows Chris Ramsay on Instagram and enjoys watching the videos even if he's not a magician. Does he know that an out faro controls the 27th card to the 2nd position, right between what was previously the 1st and 2rd? Probably not, even if it's "obvious" if you spend a second thinking about the mathematics. Does he know that if you cut the deck, the cards that were previously first and second will still sandwich that same card (but actually, it can be a different card if you do an in faro vs. an out faro)? DEFINITELY not. How many of those 1-5 who are loosely familiar with a faro are loosely familiar with the concept of a full deck false shuffle? Probably a lot more. So why spend your time worrying about people who are actively trying to ruin the magic for themselves? If it's not a "perfect shuffle" that explains the magic, it's a full deck false shuffle or a gimmick or some other nonsensical explanation. The faro shuffle is an incredibly beautiful, incredibly powerful weapon. Always has been, always will be. Please don't be discouraged because a few laymen here or there know that it's theoretically possibly to perfectly intermix the card. The people who now "know" that the trick was done because of a perfect shuffle aren't worth your time to worry about. Because before they knew about the faro shuffle, they "knew" the trick was done with a Zarrow shuffle. Or some gimmick. Or a deck switch. Or the other buzz word they saw on the internet yesterday that they want to use to prove to their friends (or in the case of Reddit, strangers on the internet) that the magician doesn't actually have any mystical powers that they got from traveling to Middle Earth and back. |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
I think most all of us would agree that oftentimes the internet in general raises as many questions as it answers and while it is helpful mostly it can certainly become harmful also. And I would hope that all of us realize that while debates like this can be seen as "much ado about nothing", to many, it is precisely the little things that separate the truly passionate from the rank-and-file.
It can be fun to debate these topics and to debate them vigorously, passionately even. But we shouldn't allow our passion to cause us to disparage the opinions of others. I've been guilty for sure and I'm sure I'll make future mistakes as well, regardless of good intentions. What we all need to remember is that while it is fun to kick these things around, in the end they really aren't all that important. Gasp! But truly, they aren't. Magic indeed will survive exposure. It might not be the same, but it will still be around. I have an idea, even if a naive one, that there are still folks who enjoy a mystery and don't mind being fooled. I hope I'm right and that there will always be people who meet that description. If nothing else, I hope that readers of this thread are motivated to stop and think about why they say the things they do as they perform. Maybe some are guilty of saying things which they maybe should not. Or maybe they could simply benefit from objectively reviewing what they say and opting to improve upon it. All magicians should record what they say as they perform and then listen to it at a later date. It can be a humbling experience. But it can be a great learning experience. Knowing the right things to say, when to say them and when to say nothing at all is not natural to most people. Improvement begins with a desire to succeed followed by reflection and then rehearsal. That is followed by more reflection and more rehearsal followed by...
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1281 Posts |
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How many of those 1-5 who are loosely familiar with a faro are loosely familiar with the concept of a full deck false shuffle? Probably a lot more. So why spend your time worrying about people who are actively trying to ruin the magic for themselves? If it's not a "perfect shuffle" that explains the magic, it's a full deck false shuffle or a gimmick or some other nonsensical explanation. I would have thought so too, but looking online, people seem to be more familiar with the faro than with full deck false shuffles. I have even had "magicians" telling me that what is clear as day push through shuffle to me is actually a perfect riffle shuffle. When there is a trick that use false shuffles, I see way more people saying it is a perfect shuffle than people who say it is a literal false shuffle where the cards don't actually even change positions in the first place. Quote:
Because before they knew about the faro shuffle, they "knew" the trick was done with a Zarrow shuffle. In my experience, people don't know what the zarrow shuffle is. 9 times out of 10 people call a zarrow shuffle or a push through shuffle a perfect riffle shuffle or a faro. This is what I mean when I say the concept of the perfect shuffle has become way more known among people who don't know even the more basic sleights. A beginner in magic is most probably going to learn a bunch of other sleights before a faro shuffle, at least I was able to do a zarrow shuffle, a pass and other things before I even got into learning the faro. But now laypeople who don't know what a pass is, what a zarrow or a push through shuffle is know the faro. Quote:
The faro shuffle is an incredibly beautiful, incredibly powerful weapon. Always has been, always will be. Please don't be discouraged because a few laymen here or there know that it's theoretically possibly to perfectly intermix the card. The people who now "know" that the trick was done because of a perfect shuffle aren't worth your time to worry about. Or some gimmick. Or a deck switch. Or the other buzz word they saw on the internet yesterday that they want to use to prove to their friends (or in the case of Reddit, strangers on the internet) that the magician doesn't actually have any mystical powers that they got from traveling to Middle Earth and back. I agree it is not worth worrying about or a reason not to use the sleight. Quote:
So why spend your time worrying about people who are actively trying to ruin the magic for themselves? If it's not a "perfect shuffle" that explains the magic, it's a full deck false shuffle or a gimmick or some other nonsensical explanation. I would not say that people who want to know how magic is done are ruining magic for themselves. I like to know how tricks are done, and that is part of the fun for me. Of course if you don't enjoy knowing how the trick is done and still go and find out, then you are ruining magic for you. |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
Keyboard "experts" are on everything though. It's not just magic. People go on a professional singer's YouTube and give them "pointers" because they heard something on another video. People dishing out deadly "survival" tips. All these political "experts" on foreign policy who've never left their town or on finances who never had a job.
That's just people. Motivations can vary from just wanting to be part of it to making up for bad self esteem by trying to convince people you know everything. Anyway, I don't run into very many people who would know the difference between a faro and a riffle. It's the same as the old "smoke and mirrors," people say it because they heard it but they don't actually understand it. I also think if the misdirection is strong it doesn't matter if someone knows the method. Remember the magic dealer who used a neon green TT without getting caught? Don't take that to mean I'm not against exposure, trade secrets matter, but other things might matter a little more.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 7, 2023, critter wrote: I should have said: it doesn't matter if they know some potential methods. They shouldn't notice the method if your structuring and performance are good enough.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Matt G New user Boston, MA 77 Posts |
Quote: I've heard this anecdote several times, is there anywhere I can actually watch it?!
On Mar 7, 2023, critter wrote: ------- We must run in different crews because I've never heard a layman "call out" a faro shuffle, but I've heard them heckle "you're not really mixing them, are you?! give them to her to shuffle!" meaning they understand the concept of false shuffles. Most anybody who has ever stepped foot in a casino has, after all. I guess my point is tepa, if people are mistaking push-throughs and regular riffles with perfect shuffles -- or maybe even using the word "faro" shuffle to describe it -- then what's the big deal? They clearly don't know what's going on anyways, they're just trying to impress people on the internet with their incredibly rich knowledge of inner circle magic secrets. |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 7, 2023, critter wrote: Agreed. Some magicians get stuck in the "method" phase of development where the "how to" or "secret" is the main thing. As magician's mature and grow, the effect becomes less and less of the star and is replaced by the performer. As an example, I recall a live performance I attended of Simon Lovell. His performance would have been almost as interesting without the magic altogether. Note I'm not suggesting that, but the point is he used humor and storytelling and it seemed the magic was more garnish than the main course. The thing is this, in order to become anywhere near that good you have to perform and perform a lot. There is no substitute. Practice is great. Rehearsal is great. Doing magic for friends is great. But doing magic for complete strangers is not an easy task, at least not for everyone. But it is a process and with care and attention and honest reflection it becomes easier and easier.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1281 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 7, 2023, Matt G wrote: People talk of the perfect shuffle in the context where there is production of many cards happening. So if you do a poker demonstration, if you show the deck is back in new deck order after a routine and so on. If you just do a regular card trick where you control one or two selections, people would say only things like "you are not really mixing the cards. What they really mean is "you are not really mixing the selected card". I am not talking of hecklers specifically, just people who know the idea of a perfect shuffle. I don't think most of these people would heckle during a performance, but if you talk with them about a trick, they do say something like "I guess he was keeping track of the cards with perfect riffle shufffles". Quote:
I guess my point is tepa, if people are mistaking push-throughs and regular riffles with perfect shuffles -- or maybe even using the word "faro" shuffle to describe it -- then what's the big deal? They clearly don't know what's going on anyways, they're just trying to impress people on the internet with their incredibly rich knowledge of inner circle magic secrets. Its not a big deal. It is just an observation I made that right now a lot more laymen know what a perfect shuffle is than 10 years ago. 10 years ago no layman knew what a perfect shuffle is. People like to talk about magic tricks, I don't think people who like to talk about secrets are necessarily "trying to impress other people". We all do the same thing, we talk about subjects we don't know about. Like when we see some subject about space being mentioned, we might remember something interesting related to that that we have heard and mention it. It might be wrong, maybe the thing we mention is not correct or slightly wrong or we remember it wrong, but just because we are not an expert on the subject and say something slightly wrong does not mean we are "trying to impress other people on the internet". Unless we say everything we do is trying to impress other people, in which case it can hardly be used as a negative descriptor of what we do since everyone does it. What I am saying is that we as magicians often look down on laypeople who discuss magic secrets. Why? We do the same thing with our magician friends when we see a trick, we also discuss the potential methods. Of course heckling is a different thing. |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
That's kind of what I was getting at saying there can be different motivations, not all of which are unsavory.
Speaking only for myself- sometimes I like not knowing. Like I don't know much about how mentalism is done because I'm not trying to pretend to read minds on any other level than "think a card" so I like to keep that mysterious for myself. I've got some basic knowledge of cold reading and body language analysis, etc., but for the most part I don't need to know so I don't want to know. It still "seems" like magic to me, even though I know it isn't, and that's how I like it.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1281 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2023, critter wrote: Yes, different things for different folks. Generally if I find that I don't care to know how something is done, it is a stage illusion. I just don't really care about most stage illusions. There are a million variations of some box that a person goes into and something happens and 99.9 percent I don't care about any of those. Then there are some illusions where I like how they look, I look at them more like I would look at a dance performance, I don't really care about the method done, just find them visually pleasing to look at. But when I see a magic trick that impresses me because of the magic part, where I don't know how it is done, I do want to know. I don't do mentalism really but since it has similarities to card tricks, I can most of the time know what is happening. I find all the body language reading and cold reading stuff to be just false explanations. I find it even a bit unethical tbh that some mentalists are not clear that their psychology explanations are as bogus as the "supernatural ability" explanations that psychics use or the "black ink is heavier than red ink" explanation that oil and water uses. Because no spectator is going to go out of an oil and water routine actually believing that black cards pass through red cards because of their weight difference. So this lie is theatrical, just like no one goes out of watching mission impossible thinking that Tom Cruise is actually an agent of a secret government organisation. But with mentalism people do leave showns thinking the performer has abilities they don't have. Now, you can not avoid people being mistaken, but you can do your best to minimize this. Like Derren Brown is clear that what he says he is doing is part of the presentation and might not be what is actually happening. But then there are mentalists that actually try to make people think they have abilities they actually don't have and I think this is unethical. |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
Itepa1 said..."What I am saying is that we as magicians often look down on laypeople who discuss magic secrets. Why? We do the same thing with our magician friends when we see a trick, we also discuss the potential methods."
I can only speak for myself but I have never "looked down on laypeople" for any reason, and definitely not for discussing magic secrets. That's the natural thing to do. I'm sure at intermission and after magic shows people congregate with their family and friends and ask if anybody knows how the magician did something. Human nature. Nothing wrong with that. What I object to is the ease with which they can now gain an answer. And the magic community is helping to make that even worse when they expose things on public forums. As far as magician friends, I am admittedly and proudly old school. We just didn't do it like it is being done nowadays. Did we "session"? Sure! But we didn't just give away all of the secrets. Generally speaking there was an unwritten code that said if you wanted to know a secret, you traded one of your own. There is even reference to this in magic literature if you've read a lot. Often magicians will remark that they traded something only to find that they got screwed on the deal because the secret they got in return wasn't all that great. I have complained many times about some of the discussions on this and other forums. It bothers me when we try to reverse engineer a televised performance. And it really irks me when it is done on the public side of the forum. If you must engage in that behavior, at least do it in the "Secret Sessions" area. Now I'm aware that my stance isn't currently a popular one. And I wish some of the other "oldtimers" would chime in and express agreement. But I know why they don't. Because they get flamed just like I sometimes do. And so they likely nod their heads and move on. Secrets are secrets for a reason. Secrets, by their very nature are precious and deserve to be protected. Some disagree and that makes me sad.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Matt G New user Boston, MA 77 Posts |
I hear ya. This is a fun discussion, I hope none of my comments are taken the wrong way -- I'm not trying to attack you or your opinions, just having a little back and forth. In general, exposing of magic is bad and only getting worse. The internet exists, Google exists, ChatGPT exists, there's nothing we can do about that. I wish it didn't, but we have to adapt to it. Personally, in the long run, I don't think it makes magic worse... it makes magic more accessible to more people, and forces magicians to take the craft more seriously if they want to continue getting the reactions they are used to.
It's only a matter of time before a lot more laymen know it's possible to memorize 52 cards in a row, and in fact any time you see a 9 of Diamonds on the face, or next to a 4 of Clubs in the middle of the pack, then any trick the magician does is just because he knows where every card is in relationship to it. People will always be chasing the secrets. So, if the "perfect shuffle" is the current fad, and they want to convince themselves that one super secret shuffle that all magicians do is the secret behind all modern card magic, that's their prerogative. I think we are mostly in agreement. But just as a thought experiment, if you think 10 years ago no laymen knew about the faro shuffle (even though it's been used outside of magic circles to play games for 300 years), how did the ones confusing riffles for perfect shuffles explain tricks where a deck finishes in NDO? That it must have been real magic? I think they came up with some other (wrong) explanations. There are tons of routines that end in NDO that don't use faros (anything derived from Stebbins for example). If all laymen think they're just a product of faro shuffles, we can use that to our advantage too. |
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Matt G New user Boston, MA 77 Posts |
I'm certainly not flaming you for your opinion, Ray, and I apologize if anything I've said comes across as such. You've helped me and tons of others get so much better at magic, it's certainly not my place to tell you where things are going or how things should be done. I agree with the vast majority of what you say.
Perhaps this thread would be better off moved to the Secret Sessions room, although I don't really think anything was exposed in this thread that couldn't be found with 5 seconds of Googling or watching any of the thousands of videos with a combined tens of millions of views on the faro shuffle. I can ask my posts with some specifics about faro properties to be edited, but I suspect anybody who has taken the time to seek it out here already knows all that stuff... |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2023, Matt G wrote: Matt, I wasn't referring to you or anything you said. You've represented your opinions very well. Thanks for the kind words. I think we both love magic and want the best for magic and the magic community going forward! As for your suggestion about moving the thread, you can reach out to the moderators and ask them if they agree. They have been very responsive. They deserve our thanks!
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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ssibal Veteran user 352 Posts |
It really doesn’t matter if spectators know what a faro shuffle or any other sleight is. Magicians have been exposing secrets in different forms of media for over a hundred years. As a performer, concentrate on entertaining your audience and don’t worry about whether or not they can figure out how you did something. The entertainment value is in your presentation, not the tools you used.
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1281 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2023, Matt G wrote: Well I don't think we can say that literally no one knew the faro shuffle, but it was practically unheard of by laypeople. I can not say what those people would have said, I think it would depend on what else they knew or suspected. They might think the deck was switched, or that the cards were trick cards, or some might suspect the shuffling was not legit in some way they don't understand. But I think there were many people who without knowing the faro shuffle would just be without any clue to as how the trick might have done, so they would just say they don't know. I don't think that all laymen know the faro shuffle. I think most don't know it. |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1281 Posts |
The thing about keeping secrets is a double edged sword. I understand as a magician the want to keep secrets from reaching the public. But when I was a young magician myself, if I had not had easy access to secrets, I would have not gotten into magic in the first place. As a young guy, the availability of secrets for free is what made me able to learn things. There were no other magicians who could teach me around me, and I did not have money to spend on buying expensive items nor could I get them shipped to me from outside of my country, and at the time I did not understand english so reading books was not an option since they are all in english.
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2023, 1tepa1 wrote: Just because ready access helped one person doesn't mean it is a good thing in general. There are always exceptions and outliers no matter what. If you were truly interested in magic, I mean truly interested, you would have found a way or made a way if necessary. Maybe you would have invented your own magic with whatever skills you were able to learn. Maybe you'd be an even better magician? We don't know. Making magic more accessible is often used as an argument, and on one level I understand why. Having more magicians is progress in some people's minds. To me, I'd rather have more good magicians, magicians who uphold the values which have existed for centuries. Change is good, but not at the expense of time-proven ideals and behavior. Many, if not most who are "magicians" today won't be tomorrow. Lots of reasons why, but one reason is they got so much so easily and to them it really has little value. Same way with a lot of things.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2023, ssibal wrote: So how does mystery enter in, if secrets don't matter? If entertainment is your main or only goal are you even a magician anymore?
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1281 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2023, Ray J wrote: Of course there are people whose interest in something is so great that they will carve a path through a mountain or swim across the ocean to get to it, but I doubt I as a young teen/preteen had that kind of a burning passion with magic that I would have sticked with it despite not getting any encouragement or help from outside. So I guess I was not "truly interested" in magic, just "merely interested" perhaps. However what I can say is that I have found a lot of joy in magic from that time up until now. |
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