I think you may have landed on my biggest problem right here.

My only two goals with the list is whatever bookings may come of it, and
to establish a relationship with the venue, this venue also has events
of its own and could potentially be a source of bookings itself.
(this second one isn't a main goal, but did cross my mind)

The venue doesn't seem to have a benefit for me being on their list,
actually, there doesn't seem to be an upside for them having anyone
on their list specifically.

"They will quickly notice that most on these lists are not the best,
most credible, or most popular in their field."
Although I still haven't seen this specific venue list, of the ones I have
gotten my hands on, the DJs and other folks on the lists has been mostly
folks I don't know and havn't heard of.

Kind of interesting now that you bring it up.

You fit right in then because you yourself are not someone anyone has heard of.

So you are on a list you have never seen before? Why on earth would you do that? Not only is it passive as can be but by association you are the same as those on the list.

I have to ask an uncomfortable question here. Did you give a minutes thought of what your goals were going in? Did you have anything in mind, I guess other than some phantom list, when you put yourself out there? It seems as if you just are going about this pretty haphazard. You don’t seem to have any or even understanding of what you want.

I know and know of numerous DJs, photographers, and a few officiates as well,
by "haven't heard of" I wasn't referring to fame to the public, I doubt they know
a single name on any of these lists.

My inability to get a look at this specific list has bothered me a bit, but I haven't
asked them for it, unlike most places they don't have it publicly available.

My goals going in were the same as listed here, so yeah, a minutes thought is
probably accurate.

You want the list? You want to see how much they pitch those on the list? Have a friends book an appointment to tour the venue. Then you will know exactly what you’re dealing with.

Mind you It woods have been smarter to do this prior to even contacting them, but you already did so that.

Also you might have seen a way you can provide value. Due diligence is key. Every battle is won or lost prior to it even being fought. Sun Tzu wasn’t speaking of sales but he is right.

Very interesting. I think we are getting somewhere. Fedora clearly needs to reevaluate his goals. "Performing" isn't the goal that's needed. Stand on a street corner and do that, if that's what your goals are. Building a business is a different thing. Always come back to what value you offer in the service you provide to you customer. "I get bookings" is not the answer. As you now see, that's "Me-based" as DannyDoyle has pointed out repeatedly. What can you actually do for this venue that is of VALUE to THEM? Until you can confidently answer that question, you are wasting your time and theirs.

Hey Stephen, it's good to hear from you again, needing to find a way to
bring value to venues has been my biggest takeaway of this discussion.

This one's the second biggest.

A quick question? Do you know if this venue was a primary or secondary events venue?

I think the perception you have given us of the venue is different from what it actually is, which is why this questions is so significant.

My next question is do you have a website or a promotional video?

Do you just do closeup magic?

What other ways are you using to gain bookings?

Why was this one you choose to use and prioritize? Say this would have worked out as you envisioned, have you played out in your mind how this would be if was to work as you were hoping? I see many serious considerations and problems with this which is why I am wondering the priority of this method and the investment you have given it. Have you thought about the problematic types of booking this would generate.. IF... this would work? I think there is so much you are not thinking of or understanding here.

As far as the people receiving this list, are you are of their first perceptions upon seeing you on this list?

Yes, I agree with StephenRoy that a reevaluation of goals in definitely in line, but I also feel is much needed education. As stated, our focus should be on running a business and business operations BEFORE ever trying to market.

I agree if you just want to perform, to go stand on a street corner and perform. This will not do much but fulfill your need to perform. Anything more than this requires goals, strategies, and a specific plan.

It is so hard to assist someone who is essentially starting a business (since you are full-time) yet with no business knowledge of the type of business, industry or clientele you are seeking. You are trying to build a puzzle but with many pieces missing that can't possibly be complete.

The meeting DID go as he wanted. It went to plan. He got what he was originally seeking.

I think this is the problem.

You can change the word "think" to "know".

Yes, I do have a website, I don't particularly like it though, if someone showed it to me
and asked for critique, I would probably tell them It "loads fast".

I don't have a promo or demo at the moment, usually I like to study other folks material
before I make my own, but I can't tell a good one from a bad one, most the ones I've seen
look bad to me.

I do standup/stage as well, but that wouldn't have fit for the events held at this venue
i don't believe, which is why I've been talking about close-up.

My usual way is direct outreach, i.e., "cold call", people can also find me by searching,
i don't do online ads, because if you don't know what you're doing it's a massive cash drain.

You may need to define primary vs secondary in this context, to my knowledge of the term,
and this venue, it's primary in that renting the venue is the main source of revenue
as opposed to its own events, at least that's my understanding.

The thinking here is to have a network of local venues, and to have access to their clients,
the vendor list being the first step in that process.

Thanks for the time, I'll be back this evening.

What value does you having access to the network of local venues and access to their client list have for them?

You keep falling onto this same line of thinking.

I know, I was just answering mindpros question of what I had hoped to gain
from it.

The possibility of less-than-ideal bookings has occurred to me, which is
a continuing consideration.

The reason I settled on this particular path is that it involved active networking
as opposed to tediously contacting folks to sell.

As for my investment, essentially nothing besides some time, at this point
I'm not nearly so deep that I couldn't pivot.

Once again your thinking is incorrect. It has nothing to do with that. In every town or market there is at least one primary and one secondary event venues. Often many more than just one each. It has nothing to do with their primary source of revenue, but rather they types of bookings they host and are targeting. Earlier you said they have weddings and other events there. This leads one to believe this is a banquet facility. I know it probably is different than that, but you have to understand based on what you have said here that is what you are leading everyone to believe. So first, you must know how to properly determine the venue itself. How many event spaces do they have? What are the capacities of each? If they have outdoor weddings you must understand why, as it is not as it appears or what you would think. Again this is why you need niche and market education and knowledge. How would you know how you can serve them, what you can offer them, and what you could provide for them without this knowledge?

Using the weddings you mentioned for example, Primary venues host the preferred weddings in the market at top-dollar ($20,000-$35,000 or more with several hundred guests), where secondary venues host more of the budget weddings, the off-weddings (low attendance, small weddings, non-formal weddings, second or third weddings, missing many of the elements from a full wedding including less or no entertainment.

An example of the difference between primary and secondary would be this...Let's use a Saturday night (the prime time, money-maker for event venues.) Let's say they get an inquiry for a retirement party for 75 people. A Primary venue is going to turn down or discourage that event because they will lose money if they book a small event like that on a prime night vs. having a $20,000+ wedding that could (and likely will) come in. So what they would likely do is direct them to a Friday or a Sunday of course mentioning that they could offer them a much better price, which they will

A Primary venue is a place of must. You must have your wedding there. This is the highlight of what this type of venue caters to. That's what they are targeting those big "must" kind of primary events. Everything else is just supplementary and secondary.

A secondary venue would accept the retirement party on a Saturday and is usually is more price-friendly and hosts any type of event if they have an availability.

As a performer you should also know how your exact same performance will be greatly different between the two venues. Not just in price, but in almost every aspect. You should know and understand this as even your customers will not, and the venue will likely not share this information. Many events are on less prime days and times and for a performer are less than optimal.


My professional advice is to stop everything you are doing and decide what exactly you want for your ideal gig? For whom, closeup or standup, for what price? Be specific. You are dealing in too many generalizations and hope that will lead you nowhere.

You want good paid gigs, that can best showcase your product and what you are selling. Don't fall into the trap that everyone can benefit from your show, or everyone will love your show. They won't. Or that everyone wants a magic show.

Stop and return back to the foundational creation level and make all of the proper and necessary entertainment business decisions for your business and operation. Included in this will be a business model and business pan. These will dictate your marketing plan if done correctly.


Also it seems to me like you are favoring closeup when it is much easier to establish value from a stage/standup show. Especially if you are claiming to be a live entertainer, not a "magician."

Get some education and guidance. Do some market research and a compatibility study. Quit putting so much effort into longshot methods that will only result in crappy, non-idealistic bookings if any at all. This is no way to establish a business, relationships, and your reputation.

It doesn't seem like you've invested anything in your business or it's education to assist you. Also how do you know your performances are truly market-ready?
How are you living off of this?

What makes you think their clients are your ideal clients?

By deciding to do what you're attempting you are essentially targeting people who do not have or want entertainment? They are not asking the venue for "entertainer recommendations" and are not thinking of a magician in any way? This is who you want to target?

Also do you know the top 3 reactions when a prospect at these types of venues hears about a magician? You should. This is important to understand the prospect's perception at all times.

Thanks for the clarification.

It's low end compared to the most immediate competition, although
it has two event spaces so events can run concurrently, one 300+, the second max 75.

This is the busiest facility in town though, the pricier, what you would call primary
venue is struggling, it definitely doesn't have the "must" factor you talked about.

The main problem is that folks would rather go to the next town over, where the
better venues are.

You have given me things to think about, and think about them I will throughout the day

Sorry I left so many questions unanswered.

About the banquet hall question, this is definitely not one, it has none of the facilities
that would be required, didn't mean to give that image.

To the question of "How are you living off this", working with venues is a very
recent endeavor as I wrote previously, the last two months or so.

Based on my communications with other venues, I should be able to get on more vendor
lists if I put in the effort, whether this is worth doing is a different matter.

It's interesting that you believe standup/stage has more opportunity than
close-up/strolling, you wrote the same thing recently in the post about the guy
you coached.

Why do you believe that it's easier to establish value with standup as opposed
to close-up? if you don't mind me asking.

As I've said many times, you have to think like your prospects, customers, and their audiences. Magician's consider closeup and strolling a performance, most of the public does not. Nor do many bookers/buyers/event managers/[producers. However everyone considers a stage show a performance.

Next, a standup/stage show is a produced performance for an audience there with the intent to watch a performance. Even if at a private event where they are not there for a show, they respond much more favorably for a structured standup/stage show and therefore respond better resulting in a better performance and perception (and value) to everyone involved.

Also simply value. Many prospects, venues, producers, etc. wouldn't think anything of spending $500, $1,000 or more for a standup performance, but most would never consider spending that much for typical closeup magicians. Of course there are exceptions but I am speaking about the masses in the majority of situations, events, and venues, and especially for someone in the beginning stages of performing.

Next there are so many more booking and event opportunities for standup/stage than closeup. A stage performance is a featured performance, strolling/closeup is often just an add-on.

There are so may other reasons but hopefully these will give you the idea. Closeup can always be added to a stage/standup show as well.

Thanks for the insights, it's definitely easier to sell someone on
close-up at an event you're performing a stage show at than vice versa.

Interesting that some producers don't think of close-up as a performance.

Well close up fine the Eddy 99% of guys do it isn’t seen as a performance.

In a free years you’re going to finally figure out people don’t like magic as much as you do.

Maybe Eddy isn't that good?

Seriously though, I don't know what that means.