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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Riiiight.
Sorry but you are trying to get them to believe something other than reality. People’s perception of you is your own doing. It is lazy to blame others. Maybe they got angry at the manipulation attempt. You don’t know. You’re making assumptions for convenience. The crux of this entire problem is eternal. Wanting and believing you can advance from where you are, knowing in your heart you can, and being the only one who sees it. You desperately want people to stop looking at you at this level you have been at. Everyone went through it. But again using language to try to manipulate people to look at you differently and faking it till you make it isn’t the way. It will stall you in your tracks and even if the tactic eventually works it will take longer to get past it because of the number of bridges you burn. Do you like when someone trying to sell you something uses these transparently manipulative tactics on you? Do you get angry the instant you spot them? My guess is yea. So when little manipulations like you’re talking about can be quite offensive. All I’m saying is be who you are! Be it loud and proud. People either like it or don’t and find out immediately and move on. Save yourself the time money and aggravation. I am not even going to elaborate on if it is effective to lie to gain gigs. Overall in the long run it costs money. That is the bottom line. Use all the weasel words you want to look for a way to justify the behavior. Makes no difference to me. In not having a discussion about the value of telling lies to get gigs. I won’t raise it to the level of a serious position by talking about it further.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 7, 2023, Dannydoyle wrote: This again is one of the problem with the magic community mostly operating from a me-based perspective and approach rather than from a true industry position. It is the me-based mindset and beliefs that create this entire problem and it's ultimate affect on the magic industry and all other performers within it. People don't like being lied to, played, and being taken advantage of. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Alright, so my meaning has been completely lost.
I'm going to elaborate. "Live entertainer" isn't a lie, it's also not a form of manipulation, the purpose is to start a conversation, in a person to person interaction, it works quite well. Also in a person to person interaction, the amount of time between me saying "Live entertainer" and "magician" is usually around 10 seconds. Hardly manipulation, just engaging in dialog. The problem arises in the reaction to the term magician, a lot of folks has a negative opinion of magicians, maybe you haven't come across it, but the term is less than a positive to some folks. As for "illusionist", the purpose of that consideration isn't "fake it till you make it" most genuine illusionists are in a money loseing position anyhow. The point is to use a less common term to avoid previous stigma, and to increase the odds of continued dialog by being asked for elaboration. Once again, I've had "mentalists" recommend that very thing. This may be wholly ineffective, that's the point of this thread. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
I think you think we don't understand what your expressing. We do completely. I think this is a very elementary and newbie thing to be experiencing. The problem seems to be with your perspectives and how youoare choosing to approach and deal with it.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Ok think of it from their perspective. Every word you have typed is from your perspective. Here is their.
You claim you are a “live entertainer”. They ask what type and you 10 seconds later say magician. Their first thought is why not just say that in the first place? In the first 10 seconds they are having to ask themselves questions about your business practices! They may not have had a stigma prior to that but you hand them one in the first 10 seconds. Then you go and blame the stigma as if it previously existed! It is the Bootstrap Paradox almost. It is a very newbie thing to do. Don’t think you are always the smartest guy in the room. Do you not think they will see through this? This is the point. Be 100% genuine. Be who you are and be confident and proud of it. The only reason you should be worried about a stigma is if you fall into that category personally. You seem desperate to cling to this which is just so sad. Nothing done with weasel words will get you one more gig than being honest will get you. It eventually loses you gigs in the long run, which you then go blame on some stigma. The question to wrestle with is why you believe any stigma can be overcome by playing into it? Is being disingenuous going to solve your problem? You keep trying to explain as if we don’t get what you are saying. I for one do. You just don’t like the answer is all. Live entertainer is a manipulation. Your goal is admittedly to con them into talking longer. If that isn’t manipulation you need to look up the definition. You believe the conversation is going to end if you say magician. You manipulate them into talking longer by saying live entertainer. It is almost the definition of manipulation and believe me people do not like it at all. The first thought becomes “maybe he isn’t that great a magician if he has to hide it”. I have NEVER had anyone apply a stigma to me out my work once I reached a certain level. Magician actually gets them asking questions. Too many in most cases. I avoid using the word when I DON’T want to continue conversations!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
I guess we were thinking, typing, and saying the same thing at the same time, lol.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Also all of this is an excellent example of not having done all of the proper foundational work (in then proper order) to start your business vs. trying to figure it all out as you go.
One is an easy structured system, very direct and concise, that addresses and answers so many of the elements performers continually struggle with and all of the problems and dilemmas and roadblocks most will incur, which becomes a beautiful thing, vs. the winging it from non-educated, uninformed, inexperienced personal thoughts. One is the long hard road, the other is the fastest, most direct path to your desired success. Two vastly different things. |
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imgic Inner circle Moved back to Midwest to see 1337 Posts |
Has anyone ever been a "dead entertainer?"
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Nice to see you resurrect the “live nude girls” joke about 100 years later.
Tommy Cooper was alive when he took the stage, not so much when he left though.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 6, 2023, Fedora wrote: One of the things I have discovered (and has proven true time and time again) is when one used dishonesty, puffery, not doing the right things and outright lying, is if they do this in one part of their business or job, they likely also do it many other areas of their life as well. Going back to the quote above, this is more dishonesty or deception in not telling this guy what he truly needs to hear (and learn.) By not telling him this information and deflecting it to "it loads fast" is not helping him in any way at all. If anything it is hurting him as he will then think what is has done is fine, right, and acceptable. Some people around here give Danny and myself a lot of grief for calling people ooy on such things when in reality it is a good, positive thing and very helpful for those that truly want to learn and operate in honesty and reality. I get the truth can hurt but if you can't handle the truth, or don't want to, then either get out of the business or learn to accept lack of success, onlylimited acheivement, setbacks and failure. It is really pretty easy. To truly help someone you must deal in truth and reality. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
As always, all the posts are appreciated, before I continue with my post,
i would like to say that I am getting good things from this conversation, and I'm not being intentionally combative. I'm going to elaborate completely on why I use the term live entertainer. In a previous post I mentioned it's useful to get a dialog going, that's one reason. The second reason, and probably most relevant, that's how I see myself, vague I know, but still, that's what it is. For evidence of this, check my profile, under occupation I've had "Live entertainer", Why? there's no dialog to continue, considering it's on the magic Café, most would assume what it means, so I've failed to hide anything, and it's under an account name, so folks don't know who it is anyway. The reason is, it's how I see myself, and how I want to be seen. This is true on stage; this is true in person. But won't they know you're a magician once they see you or hear your description? probably. I'm going to do something I've never done before, critically analyze my own analogy. I've gotten pm's and there's definitely been some interpretations, first of all, the fact he lied was irrelevant, the important detail was the last line. "i live on the west side, with my mother" this was the mistake that ended the dialog. But what was his error? was it lying in the first place like Danny thought? Or was it that he should have danced around it, and just said he lived on the west side? I'll tell you what he did wrong: he lives with his mother. That's it, the point of the analogy. And I asserted that "being a magician is like living with your mother", this was meant to indicate that being a magician isn't cool. Anyway, based on the messages I've gotten, this thread is getting attention, i see this as a good thing. One last thing, if you state a thing, such as "magician", a person already has an image of what that is, from there, you're working against their perception. In those ten seconds between "entertainer" and "magician" I can establish my own image of what that is, a very useful thing. At least verbally. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Wow, a lot of posts happened while I was writing.
Mindpro, you're correct that what I told Robert was ultimately unhelpful, I should have just skipped to the bio issue. I'll avoid giving folks useless praise in the future, at least when it's something important. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Why don’t they have a perception of you? If you are selling them a genetic thing like magician yes those things are left to them. Why aren’t you selling you? Again newbie mistake.
The idea that somehow you don’t think being a magician is cool is the problem. Get them interested in YOU and whatever you are doing is what is going to be cool. If they like you then they will like what you do. Perception problem nonexistent. But try to manipulate them and they feel like they have been manipulated and people just don’t like that. People want and need to buy things but most often don’t like to be sold anything. You can’t seem to see the difference. You keep going back to and trying to justify behavior THAT IS NOT WORKING! Why do you cling so dearly to the idea that this is the way to do things? Go ahead and try to book yourself as a “live entertainer”. Great it tells people nothing of what you do or who you are. It doesn’t promote meaningful dialogue or help in any way as you have told us. You want to blame some stigma for the people in the original post not calling you back when in reality they may just be angry at the tactics. Easier to blame every other magician than yourself though I guess. Ultimately people are hiring you as a magician. Saying live entertainer means you are setting yourself up to waste your time talking to someone who hopes you are a singer. Why do that intentionally? It wastes your time and theirs and contributes to that stigma you so hate. McDonald’s does not do advertising to try to cater to the 5 star restaurant crowd. Take away the dishonesty and the idea that you won’t have meaningful business relationships and you are left with creating your own time wasting events. People call and then you intentionally drag it out even further, all because you want to say live entertainer instead of what you really are. Add to that the number of people who won’t even get in touch with you unless they happen to Google live entertainment instead of magician. There really isn’t a huge upside to what you are trying. But you chose to blame some stigma that you can’t figure out you are causing. It boggles the mind that you cling so desperately to this. The worst thing is you are using up the most important time in any meeting and that is the first impression. Manipulative person who is embarrassed by being what he is seems to be the takeaway. They make up their mind if they like you within 30 seconds and you spend a third of that intentionally confusing and trying to manipulate them. Something so simple as what you do isn’t clear. Is it any wonder people don’t follow through with you? Again newbie mistake thinking you are the smartest guy in the room. You get one and only one first impression. Don’t use it screwing around. Heck even here in this thread you tried to manipulate us into your analogy and it fell apart. This doesn’t seem to be your strong suit.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Again this is all from a "me-based" perception of Fedora. He should be focusing on what the recipient, in this case the venues he is approaching (which I would like to learn more about - are they restaurants, banquet halls, events centers, theaters, etc?), what are their interests, wants and needs? What are they interested in.
What benefits does being a "live entertainer" offer and serve them? Even if you somehow get them interested in you, they now have the extra work having to explain this to their prospects and clients. How does this benefit the venue or their clients? It certainly at the least would offer confusion. Also what is in it for these venues you are approaching? So many other questions immediately come to mind. The point is everything you are saying is about you - "I" don't like the perception people have of magicians, "I" use "live entertainer," "I" condone or don't condone lying or dishonesty, "I" like or don't like humor, etc. So what? Are you performing for you or your clients, prospects and audiences? What do they want and need? What are they seeking? What do they expect? Again, what is in it for them to work with or be affiliated with you? |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Hey mindpro, thanks for asking about the venue, it might
move the topic forward. First, about my excessive use of 'I' in this thread, the reason is that I was asked certain things, or 'I' thought (perhaps incorrectly) that my meaning wasn't understood. Usually, I avoid talking about myself like that, and do try to focus exchanges on the person I'm talking to. In the case of this thread, I'm not trying to sell anyone anything, nor (contrary to what Danny wrote) am I trying to manipulate him, you, or anyone else into anything. Anyway, about that particular venue, it's a privately owned outdoor event center, based on the prior research I did, it mainly hosts weddings, though I did find numerus other sorts of events on the schedule. The upside I presented was a percentage of any fee that occurs at the venue in exchange for being introduced to their clients, or included on their preferred venders list. (i actually couldn't find if they had one) Yes, I'm aware that some venues avoid receiving fees to be on a list, due to conflict of interest, this didn't seem to be a problem here. Most likely, and I'm having to assume here because the conversation was terminated, based on the venue, they would have been more hospitable to a singer or Dj, as opposed to variety entertainment. Considering that she asked what sort of performer I was, there was most likely an answer she would have liked, I don't believe she thought I was dishonest, but once again, assuming. I'm considering contacting someone holding an event there, and offer my services at a low rate, just to perform at the venue. (they allow outside vendors) Perhaps the venue owner would reconsider if they happened to be there and saw me in person, or maybe not, might be worth a few hours of time to try though. Any other questions feel free to ask. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
If you can’t accept the truth of how others see you then moving forward impossible.
YOU said that you wanted to get them to ask you what type of live entertainer you are. YOU said it keeps them talking longer than if you say magician. Sorry but this is manipulation simple as can be and it is dishonest just as sure. YOU said you made the analogy of the BMW to try to get a reaction so you could correct it. THAT is manipulation. Not only are you very bad at this, you don’t even want to admit it is what you are doing. It is quite likely that the people at the venue didn’t like this. I know it is so tough to accept but it is possible. But you want to make your assumptions based on how they benefit your perceptions. This is a dangerous road to go down. You just need to see this for what it is. First it is ineffective or you wouldn’t be having all this trouble. Your refusal to accept the simple truth staring you right in the face, and doubling down and making excuses isn’t going to propel you forward at all. If you can’t see that you make mistakes or are not right about absolutely everything then moving forward is not going to be possible. The way you do things will absolutely keep you stuck in the place you are in. If you want things to change you have to change them. First thing is realizing change is in order. Mindpro wasn’t talking about you using “I” here in this thread. EVERY approach you have seems to be coming from on a “ME” centric universe and way of thinking. It NEVER takes into account how the customer can benefit. It is all about YOU and what YOU think YOU can do and how YOU can benefit. He is not talking about how you speak in this thread.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 7, 2023, Fedora wrote: This is exactly what I thought. Thanks for the clarification. I think you went about this incorrectly. I think you didn't consider their perspective. You didn''t qualify the venue and contact as far as I can see. Also, where did you get the idea of getting on a "preferred vendors list" (just curious)? This seems like something from a magician's marketing course, lol. I think some of your assessments are wrong here and some probably right. As the type of venue you described, I agree that on the surface they'd more than likely prefer a DJ or perhaps band. In the way you did this you never educated the prospect. You really didn't even address the real reason or issues, it seems you spent more time skating the issue due to your preconceived perception of the belief you "thought" they'd have. Again this all goes back to setting up your business and systems including marketing and such proposals as this. You MUST know how to present your business, which I call your Sales Performance. This is quite absent from this transaction. As the previous owner of a teen club, a night club, and operating 23 comedy clubs, and a consultant to Brunswick sports centers, I wouldn't even think of entertaining this type of offer and not this approach at all. Also, a percentage of whatever is not enough of a CTA or serious offer for anyone to be interested and take this seriously. As I've written about in my training course and I believe a book or two, I started offering (at least) $100 for any lead resulting in a confirmed booking from venue referrals - again this was the price to be taken seriously back in in 1983, 40 years ago. Today this is more like $200. People want to deal in real numbers they can count and figure on. Just like you and your business, they want a guaranteed amount they can count on. Much more to this but this is just a surface glance. Them not being interested at first glace (on a surface level) in an magician is the signal of a great opportunity. This tells me they do not have an arrangement with another magician or understand the opportunity which is where the education comes in. This would be great if you were approaching this properly for the right reason and purpose. You may still hear from her, although doubtful, but if so you have some serious damage control to do here to get this into a truly inviting, win-win or win-win-win (with their client) deal. This also makes me question how much you really know about the wedding and events industry? This seems more like operating from a general magician's surface level. Another question, if you are positioning yourself as a live entertainer, what does that really mean? What does that include? How is it different from a magician? Why have any magic at all? |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Thanks for the time mindpro.
"I think you went about this incorrectly." based on the results, you're probably right. "You didn't qualify the venue and contact as far as I can see." depends on what you mean by qualify, the contact was the co-owner, she acquired it in 2015. I gathered as much info as was publicly available, unfortunately, I haven't been there, nor was I able to find out the usual vendors, which was the reason for searching for a list. "Where did you get the idea of getting on a "preferred vendors list" (just curious)? This seems like something from a magician's marketing course, lol." I'm sure it's on one somewhere, but I got it from a Dj. I only recall one vendor list I've seen that had a magician, probably an industry thing. "Also, a percentage of whatever is not enough of a CTA or serious offer for anyone to be interested and take this seriously." Thanks for the tip, I was on the fence about what they would prefer, I don't care either way. "which I call your Sales Performance. This is quite absent from this transaction." Once again, you're probably right. "Then not being interested at first glace (on a surface level) in an magician is the signal of a great opportunity. This tells me they do not have an arrangement with another magician or understand the opportunity which is where the education comes in." Absolutely, that's why I haven't written it off. "You may still hear from her, although doubtful, but if so you have some serious damage control to do here to get this into a truly inviting, win-win or win-win-win (with their client) deal." I think she fell off the planet 4 days ago, but I'm not sure. "This also makes me question how much you really know about the wedding and events industry?" As it should, truthfully, I've only started approaching venues a couple months ago, all previous work came from my own outreach, as I believe I wrote about before. Most my knowledge has come from an event planner, an agent, and of course, the Café. (plus some apparently irrelevant experience) This knowledge is proving quite inadequate for the job at hand. I'll answer your last question in a bit. Sorry Danny, I don't mean to ignore you, but I only had a few minutes. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Often a big problem is talking with someone who can give you a no, but can’t give you a yes. It seems to be the only pitfall you have avoided.
I will tell you that approaching a venue cold with no brand name on your end and offering a percentage deal isn’t exactly a strong position to try to make a deal from. Not to be mean but you are not a name of any sort or a huge auto draw. They are risking WAY more than you are in this sort of deal. With electric bills and with paying staff and such it is not cheap to keep a room open and to do it based on a maybe percentage is not a great position to try to sell from.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Trying to get back to the initial question, are you (Fedora and others here) embarrassed to be a magician?
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