I saw his FISM cup and ball routine at the Castle. pretty cool. I was flummoxed by much of it.

Brian Olchab's routine was pretty funny as well. My layman friend loved it.

Bob Read has a great bit with a watch, but it is entirely different than what is being discussed here.

Wasn't there a routine published in an IBM magazine that had a similar routine to Jason Latimer. I may be wrong but thought I'd seen it a while ago.

There was a write up on Latimer in Genii

Wasn't there a routine published in an IBM magazine that had a similar routine to Jason Latimer. I may be wrong but thought I'd seen it a while ago.

Pete is right, there was an article not to long ago in the Genii...also, in the late 70's/early 80's Mickey Hades had a manuscript on the market that was a Cup and Ball routine done with clear glasses. Penn and Teller at one time did an expose on the C&B using clear glasses as well.

Mike

Yes, I try to forget the expose by Penn and Teller. I think that was the last show I watched of theirs. Not quite my style.

MM

I've had the idea for a while in which I have several receptacles (cup-like in their make-up) in which the item that appears underneath isn't suppose to. I cause it to vanish only to have it reappear again and again and again. I finally destroy the thing only to have the "parents" appear at the end.

Rick

I'm current working on a similar routine to one which I saw Jason Latimer performer at the Blackpool convention this year. However, I had no idea that Penn and Teller had exposed the method. Wether an effect is a year old or over a 100 years old, don't others think. When I come to perform it, how many people in my audience will have already seen the effect?
I hate working against others, I would much rather work with them

Actually, I don't believe P & T exposed the method that Jason (and presumably, you) use in the clear glass C&B routine. They exposed the normal version. But I doubt that many people remember it any more.

I am currently performing a one-cup routine with no small ball sequences. In fact, there is no small ball. I just introduce the cup and do the final loads. Is that outside the box? Out of the box? Still in the box it came in?

Curtis it sounds like the old ball and cone done with a cup and ball. Bob Farmers routine is also done with out any small balls, but he uses 3 cups. Your routine doesn't follow the standard or classic type Vernon routine, so I'd say out of the box. Im curious, do you use a ball or fruit for the loads?


Bill- I think that you are correct. It has been some time since I saw them and was relying on memory, thanks. I still didn't like the clear cups routine- IMO it walked on the edge of a sharp sword. I think that we need to watch how far we push the envelope with exposure or the "hint" of exposure.

On a personal note though, either way P&T just don't appeal to me.

MM

Reed McClintock's "Defiance II" certainly represents out-of-the-box (or out-of-the-pocket, at least) thinking on the Cups and Balls. The business of doing the final loads "in plain sight" is a rush.

I'll grant that more people catch me doing the loads this way than the traditional methods, but the misdirected folks are more amazed in compensation: nobody says "you just snuck them out of the pouch/pocket" anymore (hey, I perform for kids, mostly), cuz the audience is left with the impression that you never go to the pockets at all! This one has to be performed to be appreciated, and the more you do it, the more fun it becomes.

I use "stress balls" as final loads, which have the lovely property of being a "bit too big" for my cups. The down-side is that they are more visible.

David Williamson did a Cups and Balls routine for a group of magicians that was hillarious and left tears in my eyes from laughing so hard. When he reached for the final load to get ready for the load, his pocket was empty. So he acted like he really blew it and went to his case and got some lemons and put them in his pocket. He then proceded to load the lemon. What made it "Out-of-the-box" was the final load was actually missing at the end to everyones astonishment. David acted surprised and checked the other cups. They were gone too. So he proceeds to dump out a about 2 dozen lemons from a bag to quickly end the routine. Of course this would only work for magicians...but the routine was simply not the standard Cups and Balls because of that final climax which totally caught me off guard.

I agree Williamson's routine is fun to perform and fun to watch. It is in his book Williamson's Wonders.
you all posted some very good out of the box routines.
You left out a few though.
David Roth's routines (he did two and published one)published in the NY Symposium books someplace.
John Bannon did a great routine ...don't know if he still does it.

The book has an out of the box routine in it too by the flicking fingers.

Harry Riser also does a great routine and his can be found in his book.

I guess what would help is what makes it out of the box ...I have seen some strange routines that were out of the box but that are horrible.

I like the two cup routines ..they seem to be a lot of fun but magically I would say that Jennings routine where he starts with nothing ...makes a cup appear ..does magic with it then vanishes the cup is one of the best. It is in his book and on his tapes as well.
Another out of the box routine is the Mikami Cup ...you can create some good magic with that piece to be sure. It really messes with magicans and blows away the laymen.
Mikami routine #1:
Standard chop routine but after you vanish and appear each ball the cup and gimmicked ball can be handed to spectator to examine with the cup.
You can also incorporate the cup into a coin routine...good magic.
Bridges the gap so to speaak.

Oh well I rambled on long enough.
Later,
DK

I guess I am a bit puzzled at the standard. Just what exactly would be considered inside the box?

Willamson's routine uses metal cups, standard balls and ends with lemons. I don't disparage any routine, but it seems more a calibrated adjustment of what we regard as "traditional" than anything that shatters the glass of discovery.

I would like to clarify that I believe the phrase "outside the box" can become synonmous with "interesting to no one but another magician"--unless great concern for the layman's view is a consistent and calibrating factor.

I guess I misunderstood the original post. I felt anything different than the standard C&B routine would be considered "Out of the box" thinking. IMO, Tim Ellis "Runaround Sue" is fresh from a standard routine. But still uses metal cups...ok, ok, they are not your standard cups but metal milkshake cups.

I've been off line and just now saw the recent posts to this thread.

In the first post of this thread I tried to explain what I referred to as "standard" cups and ball routines. (Vernon, Ammar)

Then I listed routines that I felt were "out of the box" and different in thinking and principal when compared to the "standard routines". (Jennings, Johnny Paul, etc.)

I was interested in routines that were different, even if the author of the routine used 3 metal cups, a wand and some small balls. Something that brought a new angle to the old classic and made it different from routines that you normally see. This could be by design, or by developing different phases not normally used or seen.

For example,
Tim Ellis's "Run around Sue"
Milt Kort's "Precognitive Cups and Balls"
Bob Farmer's "One Ball cups and balls routine"
Pete Biro's Idea of a No Cup routine with both small and large balls
......and the list goes on.


I hope this helps, if not please read this thread again and I'm sure you will find what most of us refer to as "out of the box" developing of the cups and balls. There are a lot of good routines posted, and I thank all those who added to the thread.

MM

If they are catching you when you do your loads this way, then there is something wrong with either your timing or your technique. Maybe you need to videotape this sequence. You shouldn't be caught during this sequence. Maybe your loads are too large.

The first time I did the Defiance II loading, I was nailed to the wall. I almost came to the conclusion that there was a mistake in the writing, as the written instructions are, frankly, insufficient to generate the necessary misdirection. (This is not to say that it cannot be done, but that, as is often the case, something gets lost in the translation to instructions).

But something about the challenge/the approach was very appealing, and I modified the structure of the final phase until I thought I had a working solution. I believe I do. And I'm getting better at the timing/technique thing, too. But with large crowds of children, misdirection can sometimes be non-trivial.
But by that stage in the show, they have too much respect to burn me if they catch me

You need to watch the angles of your hands when you come over to pick up the cups. Analyze what has to happen. And then you will get it.

Also, heed the warnings of William Vincent as he wrote in Hocus Pocus Junior regarding palmed balls.

How many people have been busted due to reflections in polished cups?

And why use balls if you don't let them roll a bit? Or more than a bit?

Here is an idea for the crafty, igloos and little furry Eskimos. The igloos are the cups and the brown fuzz ball like caricatures (like weebles)are Eskimos. The white fuzz ball things can be caricatures of polar bears. This leaves open the use of penguins and walruses and orca whales and maybe a seal or two. Depending on how crafty you are... this could be very cute.

There you go, a real out of the box premise and prop set.

PS I reserve all commercial/manufacture rights. make a set for yourself. No selling the stuff.