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magic4jc Regular user Texas, USA 148 Posts |
Wow!
I repetively used the word "I", because I was seeking input on a situation that "I" was in. And I wanted to handle it appropriately. I felt like anyone that wanted to help could use all of the information. "I" am not the all knowing God of magic, as you seem to think you are. So, the constructive input of others in the field is of great value to me. I DID NOT become defensive, at all. I only stated that your stereotyping was "a bit offensive". It is common knowledge that, in any field, any question is liable to get a large variety of answers. So, I was seeking that variety of input, to try to make sure the situation was handled appropriately! And for the record... I am not using my part time status as an excuse for sub-par performances or business practices. Just simply explaining the reason I was not familiar with referral fees. I've never come across this situation before BECAUSE I've always handled my own bookings. Could I be a better magician than I am? Certainly! As we all could... including you! Could I have more gigs if I used referral services or agencies? Of course I could! But as a part timer, I really don't have time for more gigs. I simply came here for opinions about an appropriate referral fee, as the referring magician did not tell me what he expected, and the referral process was new to me. In My primary field (my profession), it is expected that if you have a question about something, you ask. I guess that rule doesn't apply to almighty, egotistical, "better than everyone else in this community" magicians! Sorry for the inconvenience, Mindpro! I will bow out, and allow you to bask in your own glory and greatness! In the future, I guess I'll look elsewhere to ask any questions I may have. Thank you all, for your input!
mikecorry.com
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Such a shame. You're missing a great opportunity. Best of luck!
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Such a shame is right. He only had ONE simple question.
I’m just sorry he had to wade through all the bs to get his answer. We, as in most here, would love to have more like him posting in this section. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yea you seem to be being offended and kind of missing the point. Don't let being offended get in the way of knowledge. As I am certain you know getting the knowledge is the goal.
The "me" based operation is a way of looking at things in the way that they affect you, as opposed to thinking of what you can do for the client.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
So you think others having opinions is BS? Fantastic thanks for clearing this up for us.
And I am certain that "most here" will be happy to hear you are now their spokesman. How about we all just speak for ourselves? Might work out better that way. Magic4jc you use a lot of exclamation points in your writing. Just sayin'. But you have the main takeaways you need here. Mainly getting it all figured out BEFORE you end the agreement. That is the important part of this.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On May 16, 2023, TomBoleware wrote: I gave him the direct answer he was seeking in my very first post! However, I also gave him the "whys" of how his information was incorrect (5%-10% agency fee/commission) and why it was incorrect in that he was getting it from other uniformed magicians. Again you're wrong - no wading at all, right there in my first post. It was explaining why and creating the proper perspective and context which progressed the post with what you must consider wading thorough educational and valuable information and insight. No BS in sight. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Mindpro,
I agree that ‘agencies’ take more than 5 or 10 percent. But I also think he may have got ‘agency’ and ‘finders’ fees mixed up when asking or quoting the friend. Still, you told him “as for as referrals anything less than 20% is an insult” And that’s just not true at all. Why would you even pay someone that you were just helping out? Somebody that screwed up? I personally would say “I will be happy to help you out and not charge you anything” Still, I would have no problem sending him 5 or 10 percent later. But 20 percent, no way. I’m not that stupid to support a jerk that would think he deserved that much. You even said it again “ Any referral fee or commission needs to be at least 20%” And as you can see by what others pay, that is way off. You also told him to “quit asking other magicians” Really, that should be an insult to everyone in the Magic Café. I think you keep forgetting, that is why this place is here. They didn’t start “The Magic Café” for non-magicians, and it's certainly not limited to just certain magicians. Is that what you really think? You certainly have a long history of doing it. I could go on, but anyways, not a big deal and that’s all I have to say. Glad it worked out for him. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
So you are going to quit arguing?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On May 17, 2023, TomBoleware wrote: Absolutely and that is all still correct. If there is one thing that we all have learned here in Tricky Business and see regularly is how magicians, especially kids magicians, are terrible business people, often have no structure, plan, or operational system, and many SELF-ADMITTEDLY have actually said it here that they actually hate or despise the business side of being a magician. Most of this comes from being uninformed, untrained, and ignorant to entertainment business operations. They would rather just work on their tricks. I don't make this up, it is a well-stated fact. Sure there is a very small percent that is the exception to the rule, but when someone comes in asking questions or for information you give the whole picture about the majority of what they are likely to incur, not the 5 -10 percent of the exceptions. Someone else said "I wouldn't get out of bed for 5%." I agree, and in actual business circles the numbers I stated were current and correct. You think and have always operated from a me-based position which has been more than evident over the years here. He was asking for specific information so I offered him industry-based, up to date factual information. And somehow you have a problem with that? Lol, crazy. This is exactly why asking other magicians (who most also do not know) is setting him up on a course for misinformation (as we have already seen demonstrated with the 5-10% misinformation even you agree with) at he least and problems and possible failure are worst. He himself said he came here for information and answers, I just offered him more compete and whole answers he was seeking including the whys behind them. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Another thing that I am surprised no one has brought up is the second model of doing this which, if the first magician truly doesn't want or expect any referral fee for, is when if you have a prospect on the phone or via text or email and they are inquiring to book you and you are unavailable, you simply suggest or refer (as in give them another magician's phone number, website or contact info) as an act of assistance or goodwill and then you are done. You made a referral to the prospect when you stated you couldn't do it, and then what they do with it at that point is up to them. Your role in this is done, end of story.
Now IF she does call the guy you suggested, and IF he accepts the gig, it is up to him IF he wants to give the first magician anything as a gesture of appreciation. As far as magician #1 nothing is expected or was ever mentioned to anyone. This is then different. There is no referral fee amount in place or expected, so magician two is under no obligation, and magician #1 just helped out an inquiring prospect since he was unavailable. There are no negatives in this model, no one feels they are second-rate, no one feel like they are having to settle with a magician they really didn't want or ask for, and the arrangement isn't clouded as a three-way or three-person booking. I am still not a fan of this as it still projects all magicians are the same and interchangeable and it devalues yourself as a performer, but at least it is cleaner and is coming from a place of service and assistance rather than a business transaction between three parties. |
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
This is more of the model I was referring to. Nothing was asked or expected, although I was put off when no gesture of appreciation was offered.
Again, it was my bad to assume anything would be forthcoming, but shouldn't a professional who benefited from a referral want to keep those referrals coming?
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On May 17, 2023, gaddy wrote: YES! Unfortunately common sense isn’t quite as common as it should be.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
And professionalism is not understood of practiced as it should be.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On May 17, 2023, Mindpro wrote: OH lord yea! People tend to define this as it suits them. We see a LOT of redefinition of words from others here regularly. The OP seemed as if he was trying to learn though, which I commend him for.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Quote:
On May 17, 2023, gaddy wrote: Not necessarily, there are some disadvantages that come with referrals. 1. They can make you lazy and if you become dependent on them, your business could fail fast. 2. You won’t always get your type of customer. 3. You won't get your full fee. 4. The client may have a different expectation of what they’re getting. 5.... And more Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On May 17, 2023, TomBoleware wrote: You read his question wrong. He asked if a professional who "benefited" from them want them "to keep coming?" If he didn't want them to keep coming none of the things you mentioned are even in the equation. So he is 100% right. I know personally of a couple of guys who do zero marketing and are as busy as they want to be simply with this business model. But as Gaddy suggests here (Correctly in my view.) he kicks back enough of them to the people who do refer him in order to keep them coming. Part of the brilliance of what they do is they know performers who are VERY busy and do a lot of work at marketing. So when a gig DOES come up that they can't do, they say "I have this other guy I can highly recommend. They book it and everyone is happy. It is actually a great way to get things done for everyone and a guy can be a busy professional and neve do a bit of marketing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Danny, You left out my and more….
But I agree, referrals can be good at times. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Ok I don't know how that happened but it would just be a lot of more reasons why what you said simply does not apply.
So to make you happy here goes. And more reasons that don't apply. Better?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Well, in the name of being accurate....referrals in business are actually different from from what we've been speaking of here. I talk about how all professional entertainers should have an established Referral System and a Fundraising Program as part of their business offerings.
When I speak of Referrals and a Referral System it is different from what is being discussed here in this topic. What is being discussed here in the OP's original post is called Farming or Farming Out. As Tom pointed out a referral fee is different than an agency's commission. The same is true here with an actual referral system or structure for receiving referral bookings, vs. a fee for farming out your overbookings to other performers. |
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