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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » Are effects by deceased Magicians fair use. What are the ethics. (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Spaceman-fx
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Everytime we lose a creator and magician, a lot of their effects get forgotten. But I see a lot of effects, like by Daryll, Scott Alexander, Tommy Wonder, taken with minor changes, and rereleased. That is, without referencing that the (big) companies releasing those products have asked for permission.
I can understand that, since without refreshing old effects, they can become unknown and lost, which would be a shame. But it is a business afterall. Can they just take something they didn't develope and profit of it?
Is using deceased magicians effects in this way fair use. ? What are the official ethics ?
Mr. Woolery
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In some cases, people will seek permission from the estates or heirs of the deceased creators. I find this the most ethical stance, personally.

In some cases, the actual tricks may be published and thus the intellectual property of the publisher. In which case, it doesn't matter whether the creator is alive or not, the trick isn't public domain.

I would argue that it is safest to ask yourself how you'd want your own legacy treated.

-Patrick
ElliottB
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I contacted the estate of T.A. Waters when I wished to teach the late Mr. Waters' excellent Trivarication in Switchcraft. I also recently received approval from the person who holds the rights to another recently deceased creator's work. Ironically, it is easier to reach deceased creators than living creators.
gaddy
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Ethics in magic are an endlessly debated subject. You can't copyright an "idea", and patents are expensive and rather pointless when it comes to magical apparatus.

The magic community tends to be self-policing about such things, but that is about as useful as one might think...

There are currently several, SEVERAL manufacturers out there making knock-off versions of tricks that are currently being made and distributed by the people who created them. Many magicians don't know or just DON'T CARE that they are buying stolen intellectual property. Fortunately for the creators, the knock-offs are almost invariably of poor quality, and knowledgeable, well-meaning magicians understand that one must pay for quality. And we do.

It's a sad state of affairs, but it has always been such.

The best advice I can give you is "Don't be one of the bad guys."
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
sirbrad
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I would just take what I wanted and use it as most magicians do anyway, because no one is ever going to know, unless you are some big named TV performer. But those types can afford to pay for rights, but they probably would not have to either. No one is gonna really know or care that you are doing a trick of a deceased magician at a local birthday. In fact it would be much better if the trick lived on, as opposed to dying with a performer. What good is it then?

I also find it humorous when magicians sell a magic trick, and then include a note in it saying that "you do not have the rights to perform it" on TV, because they want a big piece of the pie then too just because you did their trick. Well if I pay for a trick I am going to do it anywhere I please, and they will not get any more than I paid for it because I bought that right when I bought the trick. Many steal their idea and perform it anyway, and what can they do? Nothing. So they should be glad if someone actually pays for it.

You can't sell a trick and then say the magician who paid for it "can't perform it" or try and limit what venue they perform it in, in hopes that you can cash in someday off his appearance. This is the stupidest thing I ever heard of. You should be glad your trick was chosen and performed on TV, and there is no better advertisement than that, and would make you A LOT more money than some frivolous lawsuit over a magic trick that would get laughed out of court. Just ask David Blaine and Paul Harris.

"The Art Of Astonishment" sales were off the charts after "Street Magic" as well as many other tricks that magic shops listed which were done on the show. Not sure if David got permission from Paul, but he sure helped Paul sell a ton of books. Most magicians don't give a crap what the "magic community" thinks, and they are not gonna stop them anyway.

Also some companies who sell knockoffs have gotten considerably better over the years, and the quality of their props has gone up as well as their crediting, such as Magic Makers. Also these companies are now the only ones making props as many others like Mak have gone out of business. So I am glad they are still making products.

I mostly buy generic props though not obvious knockoffs, unless the original is no longer available and the knockoff is a decent replica. Such as "The Joker Tube" which I have, as "Stratosphere" is no longer available. The Joker Tube has some improvements over Stratosphere as well, and with the magnetic door on the vanishing box, and is great quality overall as well "The Crystal Silk Cylinder" and others. But it is really hard to prove that you were the first who created an idea.

Personally I never ran into this myself though in 42 years of performing, I buy stock magic and do my own routines as well. Everything that I do was bought long ago, and most of it now in public domain. But I never took any trick of a deceased magician nor would I know for sure that they invented it, and did not learn it from a old book or steal it themselves.

All this stuff is really hard to prove and nothing can really be done about it anyway. But there is so much magic out there that you do not really have to worry about it either way.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
om_darji
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South Orange County, CA
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Quote:
On May 20, 2023, Spaceman-fx wrote:
Everytime we lose a creator and magician, a lot of their effects get forgotten. But I see a lot of effects, like by Daryll, Scott Alexander, Tommy Wonder, taken with minor changes, and rereleased. That is, without referencing that the (big) companies releasing those products have asked for permission.
I can understand that, since without refreshing old effects, they can become unknown and lost, which would be a shame. But it is a business afterall. Can they just take something they didn't develope and profit of it?
Is using deceased magicians effects in this way fair use. ? What are the official ethics ?


Manufacturers and retailers should certainly ask permission from the estate. Yes, legally, they can do whatever they like. Morally, they should respect the creator's estate's wishes. Our job as members of the magic community is to speak up if a company sells an effect unethically.

As a performer, do whatever you want. If it makes you feel good to get permission, go ahead. Don't sweat it though. You're not famous yet, or performing on national television, or doing shows at Vegas Casinos with someone else's material. That might be an issue. As a performer, you shouldn't just copy an effect's handling/presentation. It's your job to create a magical experience unique to your shows, so that if I perform the same handling a minute later it would barely feel similar.

Call out the company if you think something feels wrong. Be a good performer and script your shows well and there's nothing to worry about.

Just my thoughts ¯_(?)_/¯
Candidly,

Om Darji (he/she/xe)
TomB
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Michigan, USA
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Tommy Wonder estate was very gratious, and except for limited items allowed people to use his material. It was on his webpage the exact wishes.

Most thieves don't even credit the original author.

People pay big money to own the rights. Its important to pay them.
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