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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
This is a springboard from some of the discussions here on mentalism.
When we get down to brass tacks, does Christianity and ANY form of magic mix? In the time of Shakespeare, any performer (actor, etc.) was considered to be at the lowest, most trivial strata of society, and were denied Christian burial. Magicians in the Middle Ages and Renaissance had to call themselves 'jugglers' and 'natural philosophers' (aka scientists) to keep from being charged with witchcraft. When Reginald Scott published "Discoverie of Witchcraft," King James I of England (the man who authorized the King James Version of the Bible), had copies seized and burned as heresy. To this day, there are denominations that reject sleight of hand and illusion as being every bit as evil as 'real' magic, as it wastes valuable time and energy and instills the 'habit to deceive.' Gospel magicians use magic as a 'teaching tool,' but do they really need it? One can teach about scripture quite effectively without sponge balls or Hippity Hop Rabbits. One could easily argue that Gospel magicians do what they do less as a means of teaching scripture, than as an excuse to do magic with their church's 'stamp of approval.' Personally, I believe that any talent has its place in God's overall plan. To say, "The 'miracle' of turning a silk into a dove is good, but the 'miracle' of predicting the newspaper headlines is evil." is nonsensical hairsplitting. There ARE people in this world who will believe that turning a silk into a dove is REAL SORCERY. So lets table this thing properly. Should Christians perform magic? Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
GlenD Inner circle LosAngeles, Ca 1293 Posts |
Yes they should and they should do it well if they are going to perform magic or any other type of performance.
As a Christian and a magician, it is my opinion that you don't have to do "gospel magic" exclusively. I see nothing wrong with magic as entertainment for entertainments sake. I love all kinds of magic and I don't have to hear a spiritual message with every effect that is performed by others or myself. But if you are known as a gospel magic performer and you are indeed a Christian or a believer than I think it would affect what you perform outside of "gospel magic" venues as well. We have to understand what motivates us to do what we do. When others do not understand the effectiveness of teaching or getting a message across using illusion then perhaps they are missing out on allowing someone to "get it" that may not "get it" through conventional methods. And as a performer you got to just accept the fact that there is some misunderstanding and judgemental attitudes out there and be willing to move on to where you will be well received. Hoping to hear others' thoughts on this. GlenD
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin
"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!) |
mdspark Special user 784 Posts |
I am in complete agreement with Dr. Midnight's well articulated views.... The more fundimental, superstitious, self-rightious, "Gospel only" magicians (AND NOT ALL GOSPEL MAGICIANS ARE THIS WAY) can't have it both ways!
But I am sure we will be hearing from one or two after this post. |
Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Judging by the 'vitriol' in your delivery, Mdspark, I'm not sure you're helping my point any.
My intent is simply to shake people out of their self-satisfied complacency and set up a level playing field where rifts can be healed. I am not here to make the wounds deeper. Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
mdspark Special user 784 Posts |
I apologize for the bluntness....I applaud you for your intent, Dr Midnight! I will therefor "bow out" of this one
Good luck in your quest Steven. I think you will find it most difficult to communicate in any meaningful way with folks that kling fearfully to the litteral Word rather than the spirit of the Word... Having been down that road many times in my life,professionally and personally (believe it or not I was not always this blunt, lol) I respect you for taking up the challenge. I therefor exit stage left from this thread for good. Enjoy. |
Steve Hart Veteran user Cocoa, FL 388 Posts |
I think that Jesus used many a situation or item to illustrate his point.
Why did he curse the fig tree, walk on water, change the water to wine, or used mud to heal a blind man? Did he need these things to preach the gospel? No but he still used them. He used these miracles to make his point. Can we not use our magic as an illustration to our message? Can we use our art and perform it skillfully? Please do and let God be glorified in the gifts and talents you possess. To experience awe, wonder, and knowledge is the beginning of wisdom and understanding the truth. Working with people's imaginations and emotions is like walking on holy ground. Walk carefully. Steve Hart
www.SteveHartSpeaks.com
www.magic2motivate.com "Motivational Magicians are some of the highest paid magicians, find out why?" |
cpatchett Veteran user My current prediction is that I have 337 Posts |
Duane Laflin does a superb job of laying out the foundation for Gospel magic in the first of his "Art of Gospel Magic" DVDs, subtitled "What is the Ministry of the Gospel Magician." Regardless of whether or not your personal style is similar to Laflin's, the points he makes are excellent and applicable to any Christian performer. Here's a summary of the topics he covers from the back of the DVD case:
- The importance of spiritual power - Individual uniqueness - Explaining what magic is and is not - The posession and perception of skill - Spirituality of entertainment - Handling audience helpers - Credibility of your message - Length and power of your presentation To sum it all up in one sentence: How to use magic in your Christian ministry so that it will be an effective and God-glorifying teaching tool. I would highly recommend it to anyone currently performing Gospel magic or considering getting into it. (I have no association with Laflin or his company, nor does my style match his...I just thought he did a really good job of covering the issues involved.) Craig
Magician: Someone willing to spend $15 to learn how to make $1 disappear.
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MarkTripp Special user Michigan 618 Posts |
I could not agree more, and I have made this suggestion as well.
It is interesting that many seem to resist it. If we REALLY want to be gospel magicians, why wouldn't we use these concepts to set up our acts? Could it be, as Duane also says, and most likely why some have a problem with his message; that this is more about "I REALLY want to do the needle trick in church, does anyone have some gospel patter'? Rather than, how can my performance, using the talents God gave me, do what is pleasing to Him? Gospel magic is NOT about another place to show how clever we are, or get another check for performing for someone. It is very interesting to me how many seem to resist that simple concept. |
Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Mark wrote:
"I REALLY want to do the needle trick in church, does anyone have some gospel patter'? Rather than, how can my performance, using the talents God gave me, do what is pleasing to Him?" This reads like a paradox. If one has a talent, like masonry, shouldn't one ask, "I'm a fine mason. How can I use this to aid the Master's cause?" If one does the needle trick like a veteran, is it then bad to ask, "How can my premier trick be used to illustrate a gospel truth?" We have to THINK a little, be honest with ourselves, and keep our minds OPEN to POSSIBILITIES. It is unlikely that an angel will appear in your bedroom at 3:00 am and say, "The Lord says you can use the silk cylinder, but not the linking rings." Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
cpatchett Veteran user My current prediction is that I have 337 Posts |
The difference is this: are you using your talents to spread God's Word, or are you using God's Word to show off your talents? Guess which of the two is what God wants?
Craig
Magician: Someone willing to spend $15 to learn how to make $1 disappear.
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Matt Huffman New user New York City 7 Posts |
I have talked to many people who simply will not see my magic because it's 'against their religion' which they said was Christian.
I do not agree with that at all. I'm a Christian Minister, and I enjoy watching and peforming magic. A lot of times I can use a good strolling magic performance as a gate way to minister the gospel. I don't understand why this is such a big deal for people. Witnessing is also a big deal for certain people. I'm not going to let anybody stop me from doing either. |
Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Granted.
At the same time though, an old Presbyterian minister once pointed out that our 'projected agenda' on God, and God's real agenda are sometimes two different things. I had asked him how I could know what God wanted me to do. He asked what I could already do, including secular activities. When I began listing things, he smiled and told me to keep on doing those things, both in the church and in the secular world. He said that God uses individuals and their talents as his plan calls. "If God wants you to do something, keep your heart open and you will see the signs. In the meantime, keep honing your skills any way you can, so they will be ready when he calls for them." We have many talents that we never associate with being 'useful to God' or the basis for a ministry. If we drop everything we do for fear that it might not be serving God, we may be steering away from his intended plan by trying to 'out think him.' God works in mysterious ways. The very talent that you may disregard as useless to the ministry may well be the very one that God may one day use for his purpose. It is also conceivable that he may call upon you to use that talent for him on only ONE occasion; a very important occasion to HIM. If you shun a talent for fear that it is 'not being used in a holy manner,' you may well be allowing it to atrophy, thus not allowing it to strengthen and fine-tune for the day when God requires you to use it in his service. A stone mason might refuse to ply his trade for years, fearing that his talent is not serving God. Then the day comes when a church, or a shelter for the poor, needs to be built. If he has allowed his skills to falter from disuse, he might not be up to the task. We are like soldiers training for combat. The war may never come, but if it does, our 'routine' training will then be tested in real combat. A soldier might only have to enter ONE battle, and fire his rifle ONE time. By being trained in a non-combat environment, however, he is readied for that one, crucial moment when he is truly needed. God's plan works his way, and in his time. It is likely that many Christians will spend a great deal of time doing church work and preaching publically, only to find out, when all is said and done, that the ONE important task that they accomplished for Christ was that obscure moment when they handed some homeless person a dollar and said, "May God watch over you." Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
cpatchett Veteran user My current prediction is that I have 337 Posts |
Personally I shy away from the word "magic"...it has too many negative connotations to too many people and covers things both good and bad from a Christian perspective. I use "illusions" for that reason and because, quite frankly, I like it better anyway.
Regardless, you're always going to run into people who are freaked out by anything they don't understand or that they are afraid may be something God doesn't want them involved with. My advice would be to respect that person and simply move on to someone else. After all, the Bible teaches that even though we may be doing something that is fine with God, if it causes someone else to stumble then we shouldn't do it around that person (Rom. 14:21-23 should be read by every Christian Magician/Illusionist!) Craig
Magician: Someone willing to spend $15 to learn how to make $1 disappear.
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BroDavid Inner circle America’s North Coast, Ohio 3176 Posts |
Numerous well stated posts have already been made in a number of other threads here discussing this very same issue.
For those who wish to read those posts, I suggest that you use the search facility to find them. For those who believe they have something additional, new, and/or definitive to say, I also suggest that you review what has already been posted to see if what you wish to say has already been said, or possibly refuted. And comment there. For now unfortunately, this thread is treading far too close to a Theological debate rather than a discussion about performing magic. And while I love a good theological discussion, The Magic Café (even this forum) is not the proper place for such discussions, which are void of material discussions about magic. Please carry on, if you wish, in the other existing threads where content is related to magic, or carry on in PMs or email. Thanks BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
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