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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Retention vanishings with a coin ? Any sense ? (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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harris
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Harris Deutsch
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"as the right hand does something else"
seems to cover it.

Harris
Palms of Aluminum Foil
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com
music, magic and marvelous toys
http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u
funsway
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old things in new ways - new things in old ways
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2023, harris wrote:
"as the right hand does something else"
seems to cover it.


Good thought.

Including being actually empty for a moment with the observed doing.
Pretending at empty is good. Actually being empty is better.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
harris
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Harris Deutsch
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I believe it was from your post.
I was into theater, mime and dance before magic.
Reading manuscripts and books on coins and other props
allowed me to put my own spin on things.
Meeting Albert Goshman and lots of others
while working through Reno and Tahoe let me see others
who had developed their own style.

Harris
Palms of Aluminum Foil
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com
music, magic and marvelous toys
http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u
Mb217
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What do you think grand magishes like Goshman and some notable others, would’ve thought about an Eric Jones, a Mickey Silver or even a Vinny Marini? They are not your regular fare, definitely a keen uniqueness to them. What might he have thought about all the progress(?) in coin magic, not just by the intelligencia but by all the rest of us as well?
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
FrankFindley
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Quote:
On Aug 11, 2023, karld wrote:
Hello.

Would there be a technique particularly suited for a ring ? In general, with retention vanishings we use large dollar-sized coins for their shine and size.
It's said that this is what enhances the retention.

I would like to use this kind of technique with a ring. However, the size is much smaller. And since it's just a band, the shine is lesser.

Does this make sense with a ring ?

Thank you.


Yes, indeed there is and it does make sense. It is called the PIVOT FINGER RING VANISH by Bruce Averbook, M.D. He published it in June 2004 Linking Ring magazine (Vol. 84 No. 6). It is a very interesting hybrid of coin retention of vision display with thimble retention ideas. The ring display moves through an arc (my word) capturing light and thereby maximizing image retention. If you are an IBM member, you can access the article for free at askalexander.org.
vinsmagic
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HE=Y FUNSWAY U, NEVER MENTION THE CRIMPINJG TECHNIQUE, THE CRIP PALM, WITH ALL THE DIFFERENT USES AND TECHNIQUES....AKA THE THUMB CROTCH .....

AND U WROTE THE BOOK ABOUT IT,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I CAN'T BELIVEU Tlk all about moves
THE GODFATHER OF MAGIC VINNY
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
funsway
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My aging, crippled fingers can't do Crimp with a finger ring, but some folks might.

A good idea for changing a coin into a ring, though.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Lawrence O
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American attention over the Retention of Vision false transfer resulted from The Peofessor's reference to it in Greater Magic. Dai Vernon has never shown an interest in claiming or crediting inventors for their sleights. According to my study of his approach to magic, he was very interested in conveying the perception of some casual moves in a perfectly natural way within the "Management of Magic" (his own terms).
Therefore let's complete the very interesting analysis of my friends Funsway, Dr Rubinstein and Jonathan Townsend with a minor historical point (Jonathan has been unfairly deprived of due credit for some of his brilliant creations)
I would also like to first focus our friends here on Rick Holcombe most brilliant way of performing a ROV "In Transit" (according to Arturo Ascanio's term) with his very essential variant: the "Rick Roll Retention"

However, let's first give credit where credit is due.
On May 3 1907, in the Theatre Robert Houdin for the invention competition organized by the Chambre Syndicale de la Prestidigitation, M Claude Grivolas after recording various existing vanishing techniques, presented his “Grivolas Palm”. The French L’Illusioniste Sixieme Annee (sixth year) No 67 Juillet 1907 p 296 to 298 publishes the detailed description of the effect with 6 photographs and of the secret moves behind the sleight with five additional photos. The focus in the demonstration of his new sleight was not on the retention of vision but the moves are exactly what is nowadays known as the Retention of Vision vanish. P 308 of this French major magazine, a variant is offered with four pictures the right hand, back to the audience, holds the coin at the tip of the first and second fingers, the left hand coming palm towards the audience (fingers pointing up) and curling down over the coin and the two first right fingers before splitting the hands (a stage version of the sleight). It should be noted that, for economical reasons, L’Illusioniste was only publishing photographic portraits of magician on its cover page. Drawings were sometimes joined to the explanation of a sleight but this is the only photographic report on a sleight over many years of publication

Over the time three directions were supplied for perfecting the Grivolas Palm:
Dr Rubinstein brought it to the fingertips which is more "natural" at least for displaying a SINGLE coin or a few small objects
Micky Silver’s unequaled perfect Retention of Vision was confirmed by a "proof" that the coin had really been placed in the left hand (where it never wwas)
Rick Holcombe’s "Rick Rolling Retention" (Rick’s coin Vanish Tutorial on Youtube). The coin is not shown static over the left palm but appears to Roll into it. This is a major step in the survival of the ROV

One topic per post: Claude Grivolas' forgotten name had to be credited here
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
funsway
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Etienne - did Grivolas use the term "Retention of vision" or the name of the psychological ploy involved - "Persistence of Vision?"

I recall many discussion on the Cafe' long ago about the confusion over "Retention Pass" in which the object is secretly "retained" in the placing hand,
and the popular "flash between the fingers" use of Persistence of Vision ploy involves to which the Professor may have been referring.
Never resolved, so your info here is an interesting addition.

Most responders seemed to feel it made no difference, with ROV now common with little care over origin.
Given the decline in attentional focus of younger generations (and lack of a sense of awe & wonder), I look for evidence that the "Flash" makes any difference now.
Is it to impress other magicians? Does it increase or decrease the apparent need to "figure it out?"

I spoke with Mickey and he said he never calls his moves anything - just does what works. I suggested he had no planned sequence -
just allowing his body memory to do what is best for the current audience and setting. He sent back a row of smiley faces.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Lawrence O
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... and the good news is that the bitcoins in or next to the shell are shimmed
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
Lawrence O
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Quote:
On Feb 8, 2026, funsway wrote:
Etienne - did Grivolas use the term "Retention of vision" or the name of the psychological ploy involved - "Persistence of Vision?"

I recall many discussion on the Cafe' long ago about the confusion over "Retention Pass" in which the object is secretly "retained" in the placing hand,
and the popular "flash between the fingers" use of Persistence of Vision ploy involves to which the Professor may have been referring.
Never resolved, so your info here is an interesting addition.

Most responders seemed to feel it made no difference, with ROV now common with little care over origin.
Given the decline in attentional focus of younger generations (and lack of a sense of awe & wonder), I look for evidence that the "Flash" makes any difference now.
Is it to impress other magicians? Does it increase or decrease the apparent need to "figure it out?"

I spoke with Mickey and he said he never calls his moves anything - just does what works. I suggested he had no planned sequence -
just allowing his body memory to do what is best for the current audience and setting. He sent back a row of smiley faces.


No! The Grivolas Palm did not underline its automatic Retention of Vision.
However, it seems to me that you are properly raising three questions about the move.
1) Who created the move ? This question is solved but we can add some additional information. If its detailed performance repotted in May 1907; it may be considered that the move had been created some (long or short) time before. At any rate, the move was reported for the first time in 1909 in chapter XII of Nelson Downs Art of Magic mentioning that it was the favorite of Harry Stork and a specialty of T. J. Crawford : the drawings that appear in the description are coming directly from the article in the Illusioniste but there is no reference to the reteention of vision generated by the move. In 1938 John Northern Hilliard reported a move spotted by Dai Vernon for Greater Magic p 666 "A Coin Vanish (Retention of Vision) (Dai Vernon)". Thus it seems that the professor is to be credited for the title. Actually the move will also appear in Jean Baptiste Bobo's 1952 seminal work and attributed there to T. J. Crawford under the title of "Illusive Coin Pass" without reference to the "Retention of Vision" and followed by a reference to Dai Vernon A Coin Vanish but without the "retention of vision" reference mentionned in Greater Magic. It will wait until 1977 with Harry Lorayne's The Magic Book to see mentionned a "Persistence of Vision Coin Vanish". Surprisingly this title of "persistence of vision" was used by stephen Minch for the 1987 Dai Vernon Chronicles - The Lost Inner Secrets in preference over Retention of Vision. Later on, in 1987 as well, Richard Kaufman in David Roth Expert Coin Vanish, credits Crawford, Vernon... for the "Retention of Vision Vanish"
2) Where do its titles of Retention Vanish, Retention of Vision.... comes from should be clear by now
3) Is this move as important as it is well-known thanks to its extended teaching by David Roth, and its perfected performance with feint by our friend Mickey Silver (and later by Vinny Marini) ?
The question stands; see next post opening a discussion on magic moves...
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Jonathan Townsend
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It helps to know what you would like to happen from the audiences perspective.

For examples:

Are you supposed to be a clever manipulator? ( then probably best to use mechanical means rather than sleights if you also want to decieve Smile Smile )

How sure do you want them to be - and until when - before you reveal that the ring is gone?

In general, it's not so easy to do better than the audience imagines.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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