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alekei.png "View Profile") Loyal user Dubai/Lisboa 248 Posts 
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Hello!
I wanted to open this discussion about something that I've been seeing here in The Magic Café. The Magic Café is the Best of all Magic forums. It has more than 13.000 members around the world. Some of those 13.000 members are professional, some others are amateurs magicians and some others just curious fans who love our Art. The "Exposure" thing, has been discussed here A LOT. But there is another kind of exposure that I would like to call "THE PROFESSIONAL EXPOSURE" We all come to the forum to share our thoughts, doubts, experience, knowledge, etc., etc., etc. So, I don't understand why some magicians are afraid to "reveal" some magic secrets with other fellow magicians. I mean, if we all study the same craft, Why do I would want to Hide some secrets about our art? I'm a full-time professional magician. But before becoming one, I was a full-time Photographer. I used to visit professional Photographic Forum, I used to go to Photography Conventions, and I ALWAYS shared photography secrets with fellows photographers. There is anything in the Professional Photography Field that I wouldn't share with other photographers. ANYTHING! ..... But in the magic business, there are A LOT of Egoistic magicians who don't share some secrets because they don't want to fall in exposure! ...and that become more present regarding to Stage and Grand Illusions secrets. Why? I can ask to a fellow magician: "Can you teach me how to do the Diagonal Palm shift?" and he would say: "yes, sure", .... but If I ask to another fellow magician who is a real Expert in grand Illusions: "Can you teach me How to levitate a car in midAir?" or "Can you teach me how to construct the SubTrunk?" and he would answer: "well, ...buddie, I shouldn't tell you. I know how it's done, I really know, but I won't tell you" Once again: WHY????????? I understand there there are some professional secrets that each of us have. Myself, have some ideas that I wouldn't tell to other than my closer magician friends. But there are "secrets" that I know, and most of you know, that I would share openly with other serious fellow magicians. Where is the limit between exposing magic secrets and Sharing professional Secrets? We have a SECRET SESSIONS section where I have seen "I can't tell you that", "I don't want to reveal the secret" and similar statements. SO, what's the right attitude? and what's the wrong attitude? Please, Post your own opinion about this. I'll keep posting along. With Kindest Regards, Alejandro Kei. P.S.:I beg your pardon for my poor english. |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3230 Posts
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Quote:
We all come to the forum to share our thoughts, doubts, experience, knowledge, etc., etc., etc. So, I don't understand why some magicians are afraid to "reveal" some magic secrets with other fellow magicians. I mean, if we all study the same craft, Why do I would want to Hide some secrets about our art? Quote:
But in the magic business, there are A LOT of Egoistic magicians who don't share some secrets because they don't want to fall in exposure! Ego might play a part, I don’t know, but there are certainly many other reasons other than exposure that might cause a professional magician to protect the secrets they use. Unlike photography, magic is a performing art. A practicing professional might want to protect their repertoire, particularly if they are in a heavily populated area. It certainly wouldn’t be good for them to have lots of people in their area copying their act. Also, if the effect or routine is proprietary and they created it, they might be taking it to market. They also might be afraid someone will take their idea to market when they don’t want it widely known. I know of several cases where this has happened. Sad, but true. Professional magicians are also going to protect the secrets of other performers, even if those secrets are widely known. So if someone asks how to do an Elmsley Count, they’ll get an answer, but if they ask how a specific professional magician performs a specific routine that the professional is currently performing in his or her shows, they’re less likely to get an answer, even if that routine is only done using the Elmsley Count! There are people on here that will help someone with the Diagonal Palm Shift, as long as their posts indicate they’ve already done their homework. If not, they’ll be pointed to the book, “The Expert at the Card Table”, by S.W. Erdnase, or perhaps some other reference. I believe the explanation in that book is confusing, if not incomplete, so after reading that, help is necessary! I’d have to search, but I believe I saw a long discussion on this. I do think you’ll find many people here willing to help you on this. One of the best experts in the world, if not actually “the” best expert in the world on the book, “The Expert at the Card Table” is a member here, and he’s a very nice person. I expect he would help anyone who showed respect and the desire to learn. Quote:
"Can you teach me How to levitate a car in midAir?" or "Can you teach me how to construct the SubTrunk?" These might be two different types of questions. Houdini invented the subtrunk, so nobody living owns it, and many magicians perform with one. But if you ask the specifics of a presentation using the subtrunk, such as the Pendragon’s Metamorphosis, people won’t and shouldn’t help. If you use the search engine, you will find that people on here have pointed to illusion books about this and even the location for plans for a subtrunk. There are also discussions of the method for this. (I always thought the method was obvious. My wife figured it out immediately on seeing it.) Needless to say, verbal descriptions fall short for such an illusion (it would take a long time to describe accurately). You really need to see drawings. I know of at least one member on here who built their own subtrunk. Levitating a car might come under the heading I described above where a professional magician is currently doing this. (?) As I mentioned above, teaching other people’s tricks is considered bad, because it destroys their ability to mystify. They have the right to mystify magicians as well as non-magicians. This comes under the heading of respecting other magician’s repertoires. That doesn’t mean a magician won’t teach any trick that another magician performs. Certain tricks are well known. To know what’s well known and what isn’t, someone has to be well read. Finally, there are some people who indicate with their replies (never the initial post, since that might just show that their naïve) that they are not willing to put any effort into learning magic, they just want answers handed to them. Writing a long complicated post for someone who could just read a description in a book makes no sense. Again, the book, “The Expert at the Card Table” is very inexpensive. If someone is pointed to this reference, and they refuse to read it, why should someone go to the trouble of teaching them? I do consider it generally bad form for somebody to post, “I know, but I’m not going to tell you.” It’s usually unnecessary. They could just remain silent. But I can certainly think of reasons why someone wouldn’t give an answer for many questions. To summarize: If you ask for some of the examples you gave, i.e., the Diagonal Palm Shift and the subtrunk, you will generally get answers, and there are examples of those answers already posted here. Other questions might step on the toes of some magicians, and those shouldn’t be answered. If someone stated they wouldn’t answer a basic question where the issues I stated above clearly don’t apply, I would just ignore them and move on. Who knows why some people act the way they do? Perhaps in those cases, it is ego. By the way, your English is very good. I wish I could speak and write well in another language.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts
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Bill Hallahan:
What a generous reply! Thanks for the explanantion. alan wheeler
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27352 Posts
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I prefer to offer some perspective on making magic work for people. This is a different topic than base mechanical secrets.
On the secrets side, there are some who DO THE WORK and create the material foundations for our craft. There are private notes and write-ups of material in the works. These are the secrets I respect. In NYC, there is a group that discusses all sorts of material and yet its members do not lord secrets over each other. Likewise the material that is in the 'show but not tell' phase of development... is respected and nobody insists on explanations. It can be done, it is done... and it's a supportive environment. People bring their projects in for critique and support. IMHO this is much nicer than picking apart other people's tricks.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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alekei Loyal user Dubai/Lisboa 248 Posts
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Thanks Bill for your Reply!
When I wrote the 2 examples on grand illusions, I wrote them with that intention: to be two different kinds of questions. I agree with most that you said, but I would like to add something: Quote:
So if someone asks how to do an Elmsley Count, they’ll get an answer, but if they ask how a specific professional magician performs a specific routine that the professional is currently performing in his or her shows, they’re less likely to get an answer, even if that routine is only done using the Elmsley Count! That specific professional magician using the Elmsley count has the rights of his own presentation to whatever specific effect he does. No one can copy his own presentation, but I think there is anything wrong if I tell somebody "Look, he uses an Elmsley count to do that effect" because the elmsley count is ONE MORE tool for the magician's work. Every trick, every move, every sleight, every secret is like each one of the music notes. I can play by ear some famous songs, and I perfectly know which notes has been used to compose that song, But I DON'T have the right to play it in public, or make money with that song without paying the royalties to its author. There are Thousand effecs that use an Elmsley count. Every effect and every magician insert their own personality on them. There numerous ways on how to Levitate a car. I can create my own method. I have that right. I would investigate on somebody else method, but I DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT to perform it in the same way. EVERYBODY here know How the Origami Illusion works, and I have seen HUNDRED of magician doing it. I'm sure, not even 5% has paid or ask to Jim Steinmeyer in order to use that illusion. and usually those magicians are the same who criticize and speak about "ETHIC" If a Magic fellow ask me How to do an specific effect I WILL tell him. I can't keep the secret for myself if a fellow is needing some help. He knows that he MUST create his own presentation and can't copy others'. I always compare magic with other arts. Yes Bill, you are right when you say that Magic is completely different thatn Photography. It's true. But,...is it too hard to compare that every color, every brush, every canvas in a Painter work,......Every note, every chord, every instrument in a Musician work.....is EXACLTY the same thing than every sleight, every move, every secret, every Prop in a Magician work....? I have the right to know. WE ALL have. Even respecting the others creations, we have that right. It is my opinion. What is yours? Kindest Regards, Alejandro. P.S.: The Elmsley count and other facts have been used only as an example. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27352 Posts
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If Alex Elmsley wishes to discuss his latest developments using his count... he will.
If I wish to discuss my work, I will. If someone asks about someone else's work... a) in print? -> citation (aa) if very well known... some details perhaps. b) not in print -> can't help. it's a secret. You have the right to know this. The extended notion of 'right to know' is discussed in George Orwell's book 1984. If you continue to assert such a right to know... expect others to presume the same of you. Now you know. 
Posted: Jul 14, 2004 1:33pm --------------------------------------- Re: It's true. But,...is it too hard to compare Please see the riddle under words we use->bad word for the day...any day. link -> http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......6&36
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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meilechl Special user 657 Posts
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First of all I'd like to appologise if I make any spellinh/grammar mistakes or if I come off a little vehement - I've just finished a 10 hr workday (2 20 min breaks) and I'm very tired.
Most of the 'exposure' problems are ********. I can (just about) understand not giving away the secrets to someone's current show because it might(?) harm them. In truth I think that even that isn't true. Let's take ourselves as an example, the Café currently has close to 13400 members, of whom most are magicians. How many Café members have you ever heard of (discounting the 100 or so big 'names')? And how many have you actually met? And how many could you call your competition, ie. performing in the same circles as you? I'm venturing a guess that the number'll be very low. So if I use Mr. X's stuff in my show in North London will it harm Mr. X from South Carolina? How about if I just know how he did a certain illusion, will that harm him? But let's put that aside and concentrate on illusions that are not in someone else's running show, who gives a %&*@ about how I learn it? Can't I be taught routine x even I don't buy some obscure book? Will that harm magic? I think that every magician owes it to his fellow magicians to help them out. Obviously some magicians use their creations as a way of making money and I fully appreciate that, but otherwise, TEACH IT! As to the sweat etc. that goes into an effect, in the vast majority of cases it's BULL****. No one sits and 'busts their balls' with sweat pouring down their faces (unless, of course, they're into S&M). Most creations are really inspirations and even those that involved thinking, that's not work. You think whenever you've got time until you reach a solution. There's one really stuck up piece of **** creator in particular on these boards (I won't mention names but he's quite famous and voiciferous in his egoistic views) that keeps up the drivel about the sweat etc. while blowing his own horn. Just because someone invented an excellent illusion doesn't make them an authority on this matter. This is an ethics question and I'm questioning the ethics of the magicians who have their heads to far up their own rears to help fellow magicians. Ok, I'm begining(?!) to ramble so I'll just stop here. (Raises glass) Here's to a unified relationship Eli (meilechl) |
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The Donster Inner circle 4817 Posts
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I thought the subtrunk dates back to 1865. but it was something diffrent. I do have a sub trunk. actully its a Abbotts Canvas Covered Box. but since the canvas is to small for it and ordering a new cover from Abbotts will cost more then what I paid for the box. there are a lot of ideas for the sub trunk. any ideas on how to present it to the audience please feel free to pm me. Don,
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3230 Posts
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Quote:
First of all I'd like to appologise if I make any spellinh/grammar mistakes or if I come off a little vehement - I've just finished a 10 hr workday (2 20 min breaks) and I'm very tired. Not vehement, but you make some statements that are contradicted by magic literature. Quote:
How many Café members have you ever heard of (discounting the 100 or so big 'names')? And how many have you actually met? And how many could you call your competition, ie. performing in the same circles as you? I'm venturing a guess that the number'll be very low. So if I use Mr. X's stuff in my show in North London will it harm Mr. X from South Carolina? How about if I just know how he did a certain illusion, will that harm him? Even if it is just one person, then the creator’s has suffered harm. That’s the issue here. If they don’t want an audience member telling everyone that they saw Mr. Y do that last week, then that’s their right. This issue is about rights, not perceived damage. However, magicians have had their acts ruined and even failed to get business because other performers have taken their material. There is testimony to this effect in Tarbell. I believe it is in the beginning of Tarbell 4 (I’m at work and can’t check now). Quote:
how many could you call your competition, ie. performing in the same circles as you? I'm venturing a guess that the number'll be very low. So if I use Mr. X's stuff in my show in North London will it harm Mr. X from South Carolina? How about if I just know how he did a certain illusion, will that harm him? And how can you be sure that Mr. X doesn’t want to visit your area? And how does Mr. X let you know without letting everyone in his area know? But more to the point, why should he have to let his idea out at all if he doesn’t want to? Magic literature is rife with professionals complaining about people copying acts, routines, and inventions. One can go back as far as “Our Magic” (perhaps further?) and see the trend mentioned throughout subsequent works during the last century by various authors, all professional magicians. And they didn’t have to worry about easy migration and the mass media. You make a sweeping statement discounting their testimony. Quote:
As to the sweat etc. that goes into an effect, in the vast majority of cases it's BULL****. No one sits and 'busts their balls' with sweat pouring down their faces (unless, of course, they're into S&M). Most creations are really inspirations and even those that involved thinking, that's not work. You think whenever you've got time until you reach a solution. You are taking an English expression literally. Sweat is often used to mean time and/or money. (However, developing stage illusions and the routines to go with them can involve real sweat). Many professionals spend thousands of hours polishing an idea, only to have someone copy it. Time is money, but even that’s not the issue. It’s not like the Compaq computer corporation copying the IBM PC. Magic creations are performance pieces. The person who created the idea owns the performance rights. The entertainment community has agreed that this is fair, as countless professionals have experienced negative performance situations and loss of revenue when their material was taken without permission. Again, there are examples of this in magic books and in Internet forums. Quote:
Just because someone invented an excellent illusion doesn't make them an authority on this matter. I think it’s fair to say their opinion is not any less important because they invented an excellent illusion. It seems to me that this would give them a perspective on the issue that is very relevant since the issue of copying would affect them directly. Also, this type of ad-hominem argument is invalid logic. Perhaps you could address their arguments? I do not wish to discuss specific current issues here, there will be too much controversy. I do know of original ideas that were taken from a magic creator in the recent past and were subsequently marketed by another magician. If you check here in the Magic Café, and in other magic forums, you’ll find cases where a magician created something, and subsequently someone else started selling a copy. It happens all the time. There is real economic loss here. The people copying almost never attribute the creator, so someone who has made a real contribution to the art often fade into obscurity instead of being appreciated by the masses, who use their ideas. Ask the 100 professional magicians on here if they have seen that happen. I am certain that the vast majority have seen it. How about some old issues? I can mention these without controversy. Just off the top of my head, the Professor’s Nightmare was a copied trick. It was created by Bob Carver, but sold by someone else after they learned it. Today it’s published in many books. Bob Carver was not given any choice or profit here. For a while, people didn’t even realize he was the creator. Most books don’t credit him at all (or anyone else for that matter). Ultimately, the entire issue of harm really isn’t germane, although as I’ve pointed out, the harm is often real. If someone creates a performance piece, they own it. They have no obligation to give it out to anyone. Taking it without permission is unethical. The rules of ethics have been set by the members of the profession, as they should be, because magicians have experienced harm firsthand without these rules. Denials of this ignore both the written history of magic and the anecdotal evidence that is all around us.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Laughing Otter Loyal user Behind you! 205 Posts
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Quote:
On 2004-07-14 15:38, meilechl wrote: Sorry, but I must disagree on this point. No one OWES teaching to anyone. Traditions far, far older than our grandparents dictate that students work for any knowledge they wish to gain. (The Sorcerer's Apprentice...Karate Kid...) If someone comes to me and asks me to teach him/her a card move (or whatever), I will ask for a demonstration of how they have developed it so far. If it is obvious some work has gone into the move, then I will be inclined to give what assistance I can. If such a request comes with an attitude of "teach me because you know and I don't" the most I will give is a referral to the local library. Helping hand? Absolutely. Free ride? Forget it. |
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gerard1973 Special user Michigan, U.S.A. 688 Posts
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Alejandro Ke:
Great topic for discussion! Yes, Magicians and Mentalists NEED to be concerned about exposure. We have worked hard for many years to perfect our craft. Why should we give away the secret workings to others who do not want to put forth the time and effort to learn our craft as we did? Some people want it NOW and do not want to work at all. They want instant, easy to do magic with no sleights, or difficult moves. There is also the issue of money. Magicians and Mentalists have spent thousands of dollars over the years on books, DVDs, video tapes, effects, accessories, etc. Why should we allow certain people to learn for free what we had to pay for? There are cheap people out there who will NEVER buy a book, DVD, or an effect if they can get the secret for free from someone else. This takes money out of the coffers for the creators of effects, books, DVDs, etc. However, a Magician or a Mentalist, helping each other is NOT exposure. The Magic Café is after all a “magic” forum where Magicians and Mentalists SHOULD be able to help each other if they want and where Magicians and Mentalists SHOULD be able to discuss “secrets” and/or problems with their acts, routines, tricks, effects, books, videos, DVDs, costumes, etc. with other Magicians and Mentalists without worrying about “exposure.” Without the free exchange of information, there is NO knowledge, magic or otherwise… Gerard
"Confusion is not magic."
Dai Vernon |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts
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Quote:
On 2004-09-02 19:40, Laughing Otter wrote: WONDERFUL post! EXACTLY on target. There is an overwhelming attitude of "entitlement" (because I want to know, I am entitled to know and you must teach me!). There are few fields of endeavor, despite what some would like us to believe, where someone can just walk up without proving they have any commitment, interest or ability and get free instruction from an "old pro." If you want to learn how to improve your singing or playing an instrument, you PAY FOR LESSONS from a qualified teacher, who takes you along and advances knowledge to you as your skill and ability merit. If you want to learn piano and have zero experience with the instrument and do not know how to read music, what notes are where or any music theory at all, no good teacher sits you down, plays an incredibly difficult piece by Chopin and then gives you the sheet music and tells you to play it. If you show a zeal, talent and commitment, a master might take you on for free to train you--but it is the TEACHER'S choice, and if he extends this great honor to the student, the student is incredibly grateful and works very hard to master the lessons he is given. Tommy Wonder has a beautiful piece on this in The Books of Wonder, called "The Brotherhood of Magic?" It is worth reading, rereading and rereading again. I have taken on a number of students over the years. Two in particular I taught for years without ever charging them a thing. I have turned down other students who offered to pay me $100 or more per half hour lesson. It is MY choice as the teacher whether I will take on a student, not the student's choice. The student can go elsewhere if he wishes, but if he wants ME to teach him, I get to decide whether I think he is ready to learn. If he is respectful and courteous, and if I believe he will treat his audiences well and enhance rather than detract magic's reputation in their eyes, I will mentor him for free for life. If I think he is a jerk who is going to expose the methods (intentionally or not) and use magic to bully audiences and show off, he can't pay me enough to teach him anything. I have been blessed to have some great teachers and mentors. But I treated them respectfully, showed them I wanted to LEARN & WORK (not just get a bunch of "secrets" handed to me on a silver platter), worked to book them lectures and did what I could to make their lectures a good experience for them. They saw how hard I was working to be GOOD at magic, and they decided they wanted to help me along the path. I didn't demand it from them and I showed my gratitude to them. They didn't OWE me anything; rather, it is I who owes them!
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts
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Eli writes: "As to the sweat etc. that goes into an effect, in the vast majority of cases it's ********."
Couldn't agree more. And, since there is not a lot of physical or mental effort that goes into it, why not share it? Ego? Probably. Knowledge is power and, let's face it, most guys in magic never had any real power in their jobs or lives. When they do magic, they have gained a little power because they "know the secret". And they are going to ride that poor horse to death! This is the kind of post that is not going to win me any friends but I'm not in this business to make friends of the other magi! My job is to entertain the lay public. Secrets, by the way, are the least important thing in magic; as Fitzkee says, most people of average intelligence could figure out any magic trick if they wanted to! |
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Vick Inner circle It's taken me 10+ years to make 1120 Posts
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Sorry I skimmed over most of the posts in this thread, am sure there is some excellent stuff here but I'll go back to the original question
Why I won't share (with most) performers what I do One day while working the performer going on right before me ..... .... Did parts from my routine, exactly word for word, move for move (It was my original patter and some unique moves - it fell flat for him due to delivery and presentation) without consulting me or asking my permission. When I confronted him about it his answer was he thought I wouldn't mind and that is was ok since he looked up to me. Needless to say I lost the little bit of mind I still have. Long story short I'm still getting regular bookings (and as far as I know he's working nowhere). The other side of that coin is I have been to some degree mentored or at least guided by some I have immense respect for. An example being one person in particular (Denny Haney) told me I could use his Multiplying Bottles routine after I bought a set from him a few weeks ago. I was extremely flattered to say the least, but... I put together my own routine but did use a few moves from his set . I don't worry about exposure to laypeople, I am concerned about other performers though, and obviously (to me at least) you'll never get your best performance using some one else material. No one has a right to anyone else's material unless they that party is selling it and giving all rights including patter. It's not correct, professional or courteous to ask or have the intestinal fortitude to expect it for free If you want to learn it's all there, either in your mind waiting to be worked out or in books or DVD's. But, so you don't think I'm entirely a curmudgeonly old so and so I'm not above working with younger people who are honestly trying to learn, it they know a little I'll usually take the time to start then with a french drop and or a retention vanish but they have to show me something first and that they are willing to work and learn. Not ask me expecting a freebie.
Unique, Thought Provoking & Amazing Magical Entertainment Experiences
Illusions By Vick Blog of a real world working magician Magic would be great, if not for magicians |
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alekei Loyal user Dubai/Lisboa 248 Posts
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I agree with most of this posts and disagree with some others.
When I opened this topic, I didn't say (and maybe I should) that it is TACIT all the basic ethic and respect we should have for the others work. I think a lot of people forget that and try to justify their answers telling something like "I don't want to tell to any fellow how I do my stuff because I don't want him to copy my show". It is not necessary to tell HOW you do your stuff in order to somebody else copy it. The other person just need to WATCH your show you in order to be able to copy it. But it is Tacit he CAN'T do that for ethic reasons and respect. One more time, here we have again the "Magic Complex". The Magic Complex is what most magicians suffer (not all), and it is the obscure reason to mantain the technical methods behind any illusion (Illusion as an all, not only the "big" illusions) as a secret. I agree our work is based on secrets. That's right. But we should care less in the How-that-trick-is-done and care more about the How-do-I-present-this-trick-originally. The other problem is the fear of somebody else do what you do in the same way you do it. And the person who fears this, usually do that. Again, the analogy between Magic and Music: If a Musician would fear about this same problem, he never would play a song in front of anybody. Because in order to be able to play a somebody's else song and play it exactly the same way, you only need to listen it. (And of course, be a Musician with a good music ear). But it is implied it is interdict to copy someone's else work. If I created a new, special method to create an illusion, maybe I don't want to tell anybody how to do it....but What's the important part on the creation of an illusion.... How to create the illusion?....or What illusion can I create? It is important to US, the magicians, How we do it, but for the lay public, what counts is the illusion. It sounds a little bit like a cliché but it is so true! You can do the same effect than a fellow magician to a lay spectator, using the same method, but presented in a completely different way, and I'm sure the spectator will question aobut if it is the same "magic trick". Do a completely different method, but present it the same way, and the spectator will assume he is watching the same trick twice. Because the spectactor, the only thing will say is(for example): "both magicians showed me a trick where they both found my card", the spectator won't say "They showed me completely 2 differents tricks because the first magician used a crimp and then undercut to that position to find my card and the second magician used a stripper deck where all the cards were in the same position except my card, so he easily could locate it just by touching the ends"  
Quote:
On 2005-05-14 07:23, Peter Marucci wrote: The Awful truth to all magicians who only like this craft because it is fun to know how something it is done and it is fun to have those interesting gimmicks. Have you ever notice how, in a magic lecture, the average magician is most surprised in how a trick is done than the effect itself? When the method is so simple and easy, He is not surprised, but when the method is very clever, he NOW likes a lot the trick! 
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24321 Posts
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This is a very complex problem, and I think there may be a problem with linguistic interpretation, as well.
I have a friend who joined the IBM a few years back. He came up to me at a meeting and asked me how I did one of my proprietary illusions. I told him that I wasn't tipping that one yet, but when I got ready to sell it, I would let him know. He said, "I'm a member of the IBM, that gives me the right to know." This seems to be a popular misconception. That isn't in any of the charters or by-laws that I have seen. Now, the difference between music and magic is subtle. Music, in general, is covered by copyright and licensing. So if you perform someone else's music for profit, they will make some money on your performance, if you are performing in a licensed venue. Magic is not. The fact that there are hundreds of people in Portugal doing the Origami (which I find quite difficult to believe) doesn't make it right by any means. It just means that Jim Steinmeyer isn't getting what belongs to him from it. When you ask someone how to levitate a car, you are asking a complex question. Are you asking them how they would do it? Or are you asking them how Copperfield did it? Do you want to satisfy your own curiosity? Or do you want to do it in your show? Recently, there was a discussion on how to produce an automobile. Since this is an open forum, as was the forum the question was on, I contacted the fellow who was planning to do the work, and we worked out several possibilities. None of thes, as far as I know, actually infringed upon anything anyone else had done. So maybe the people who were asked just didn't have any idea how to do it? That is a possibility. If a working pro came up to me and asked how to do the sub trunk, for use in their show, I would gladly show them a couple of ideas I came up with for my own show. They don't infringe on anyone else's work as far as I know. And that would not be exposure. If a lay person came up to me and asked how David Blaine levitated himself and I told him what I know about it, that would be exposure. That is part of the difference. If you asked me how the Pendragons do their Metamorphosis, I would have to confess that I'm really not sure.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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alekei Loyal user Dubai/Lisboa 248 Posts
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"EVERYBODY here know How the Origami Illusion works, and I have seen HUNDRED of magician doing it."
When I wrote that I meant that Everybody HERE (At the Magic Café) know how the Origami illusion works, and I have seen HUNDRED of magicians (in the whole world) doing it. I beg your pardon for my poor english skills. I agree with you Mr. Palmer about that "little" copyright difference between Music and Magic. The ehtic, is not copyrighted. "How to levitate a car" and "How to construct a Subtrunk" were mere examples. Regards, Alejandro. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24321 Posts
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The ethic of playing someone else's music doesn't even come into question, as long as the music is properly paid for. That's why musicians perform, and that's why they write music -- it's for money. Granted, they don't like to hear their music played badly, but they know that if someone, for example, plays one of their songs on television, they will make a big chunk of change for the tune. One of the best things that can happen to a tune is for someone to use it in a commercial. Do you think John Denver's feelings were hurt when a major airline used "Leaving on a Jet Plane" as a song in a commercial? Heck, no! He made several thousand bucks off of that.
Likewise, when Elvis Presley did "Blue Suede Shoes," was Carl Perkins offended? No. He made a fortune off the royalties. And music is not based on secrets. That's one of the biggest problems today, really. Most professionals I know actually share their secrets quite freely when they are together, if they know who you are. But if they don't know who you are, they probably won't tell you how the various items work. They may refer you to a place in literature that has the information, though. One good example of how this can come back to bite you is the Blaney Ladder Levitation. There were no imitators of any consequence until he sold one to Copperfield. Then everyone had to have one. There were knockoffs in Italy that didn't work, and one major illusionist over here adapted the principle to use it with a mike stand. Blaney was not amused. He fought tooth and nail to get the knockoffs stopped, with some degree of success, I might add. Still, if you know who to ask and how to ask the question, you can probably find out how anything works. I give out information on a "need to know basis." If you don't need to know it, I don't give it out. Other magicians know this. So they tell me how their tricks work. Not that I need to know.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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kihei kid Inner circle Dog House 1039 Posts
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Life is strange, actually a miracle if you ask me. It’s funny how things can happen. Just recently I was reading a post on another thread that pertains to this very question. There’s and old saying, “life is a mystery to be lived; not a problem to be solved”.
I don’t totally agree with this saying but I get the gist of it. For me magic is much the same way. Countless times I have SEEN someone perform something that entertained me, but I never felt the need to know the method. Instead, I felt grateful that they would take the time out of there lives and SHOW me something that they liked (loved). I agree nobody owes it to another to teach them something. What befuddles me is if you are not selling a tangible item so as to make a profit off of it, why keep something totally to yourself? I liken this to Da Vinci painting the Mona Lisa then hanging it in his closet. I don’t get it. Perhaps it’s not mine to get. Be that as it may no matter how you slice it, it’s still a crying shame. Quote:
On 2005-05-14 07:23, Peter Marucci wrote: Probably being the key word here. I agree, in some cases it is ego and for others it is something else. Quote:
Knowledge is power and, let's face it, most guys in magic never had any real power in their jobs or lives. When they do magic, they have gained a little power because they "know the secret". And they are going to ride that poor horse to death! Most being the key word here. Most yes others no. Quote:
This is the kind of post that is not going to win me any friends but I'm not in this business to make friends of the other magi! My job is to entertain the lay public. I agree. However I would not want to step all over them either (not saying that you are Peter). Quote:
Secrets, by the way, are the least important thing in magic; Although I believe secrets are not as important an issue as others, I don’t believe they are the least important either. Quote:
as Fitzkee says, most people of average intelligence could figure out any magic trick if they wanted to! To figure something out is one thing to create is another. There is a BIG difference in dissecting how something was accomplished, then creating something from scratch. Quote:
On 2005-05-16 20:26, Bill Palmer wrote: Bill, this is not entirely correct. Although probably most performers would welcome this there are others who hate it. I have been to a handful of John Cougar Mellencamp concerts and what he has said at these concerts for everyone to hear is, (paraphrasing) it disgust me to see a song that was written, produced and sung to mean something important in this world being used to sell a tennis shoe. The last time I saw him was back in the 80’s, he was referring to Revolution by The Beatles.
In loving memory of Hughie Thomasson 1952-2007.
You brought something beautiful to this world, you touched my heart, my soul and my life. You will be greatly missed. Until we meet again “my old friend”. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27352 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-05-17 08:13, kihei kid wrote:...I liken this to Da Vinci painting the Mona Lisa then hanging it in his closet. I don’t get it. Perhaps it’s not mine to get. Be that as it may no matter how you slice it, it’s still a crying shame. Someday when you paint your own Mona Lisa, you can decide what to do with it. Till then, you're speculating about the feelings of others. Try asking.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Posted: Jul 13, 2004 11:03 pm 
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