I just saw an ad in the current issue of Genii for the Black Beauty cups. Does anyone know anything about them? I am trying to figure out if they would have any weight to them or if they would be about like the cheap plastic cups and balls sets. Any information at all would help. I've been to the website and it didn't provide the info I was looking for. Thanks in advance.

J
Here is some info on the material used;

Delrin® acetal resin

DuPont Delrin® acetal polyoxymethylene (POM) resins are highly versatile engineering polymers that bridge the gap between metals and ordinary plastics. DuPont Delrin® provides solutions to acetal customers by offering a broad product line of both homopolymer and copolymer products. Delrin® is used widely around the world in many applications such as automotive, appliance, construction, hardware, electronics and consumer goods industries.

Delrin® resins offer superior mechanical properties including high strength and rigidity over a broad temperature range, toughness and resistance to repeated impact and good electrical insulation. The resins are used extensively in injection molding and offer excellent thermal stability, fast cycle time and low mold and screw deposit. The resins have superior dimensional stability, long-term creep resistance, long-term fatigue resistance and excellent resistance to moisture, chemicals, solvents and fuels.

Delrin® offers a broad line of general purpose and modified materials that can be injection molded and extruded. Modified resins include low-wear low-friction, UV resistance, high stiffness, toughened, conductive, laser markable and mineral filled.

Additional web searches will yield density info etc.

Hope this helps some.

Wow! Thanks for the info. I was looking for weights, but I should be able to find that. Thank you very much!

J & B?

Whit,
What is the significance of "J & B"?

Scotch? Or maybe Whit happens to not have seen the ad. I believe it is a set of cups made by the original gent, Mike Brazzil, that founded Rings N Things.

The cups are indeed made by Mike of the Orginal R-n-T fame.
These cups are not worth the price at all.
Points being:
#1 they are small plastic
#2 They are very very lite.
I saw them at SAM and the design is nice but they are a souped up version of a cheap plastic set in my opinion and not very collectable. They are more of a novelty.

I miss the old RNT chrome and other pieces they have to offer but Mike says that they will be coming out with those things with new designs soon.
I would wait until then to purchase the cups and skip this inferior set made of Resin (plastic).

On a side note Resin also chips and dents much easier than Regular polymer plastic and although these cups looked nice at the Con I wonder about their durability for the working pro. Mike said that no one was currently using them they were just collecting them.
What is the durability of this resin?

Later,
DK262

Well, Dk262, you make a very interesting point. First, you say, "On a side note Resin also chips and dents much easier than Regular polymer plastic and although these cups looked nice at the Con I wonder about their durability for the working pro."

Then you ask: "What is the durability of this resin?"

First of all, most "plastics" as we know them are polymers. "Delrin" is a polymer resin. It is very tough and flexible. It has been used to make everything from telephone cases to guitar picks. It can have a certain amount of flex to it, but it is highly unlikely that it will dent in the thickness that Mike is using for these cups. It is superior to nylon in durability.

I haven't seen them, but I correspond with a collector who got the first set of them Mike sold. He is quite pleased with them.

Regarding various "plastics" -- different "plastics" have different flex characteristics. Bakelite, which is one of the earliest is not IMHO a good material for cups, but I have some early Adams cups that were made out of it. They are still in fine shape after approximately 70 years. Polystyrene is not a very good cup material, because it is stiff and fragile, ditto ABS. Polypropylene, which is what most small parts boxes with built in flex hinges are made of might be suitable. And Polyethylene (or Polythene) is a bit soft for cups.

I'm going to wait until I see them at TAOM to purchase them.

Anyone know where I could find a picture of them?

Here ya go :
http://rnt2.com/blackbeauty.html

Those dimensions are almost the same as a set of Ravel mini cups. They are just a little larger diameter at the bottom.

If I were bringing out a new set of cups, I think I would try to have something that would be a bit more in keeping with the size the rest of the magic community would be interested in actually using.

Looks like RNT2 has decided to hit the mini cup market with their whole line. All their cups are that size, at least according to their web site.

Well, mini cups are popular, so let's see how well they do in the marketplace.

I'll probably buy a couple of sets for the museum.

Looks like they have gone strictly to CNC work on these things -- at least the metal ones.

I find that having to inquire their price make this a presumably expensive polymer. I doubt these have the neoclassical pedigree that requires a private financial inquiry.

I work with Resin for Movie Prop Replicas and have found that resin is good for this purpose and we usually don't care about denting the material.
I have not heard of this type of Resin before that is why I asked about it's durability.
Delrin Resins....interesting stuff.
With movie props we just sand and paint the dent or fill it with putty (bondo is good too).
With a usable prop for close up work I prefer metal not these Black Beauties but then that is just my personal preference.
I also know, after some discussions with others, that these were originally going to be made out of a Black Wooden Material that would have made them more desireable in my opinion. (Iron Wood or Ebony )

I still hold that they are a plastic and very lite and therefore just run of the mill mini cups. They really aren't that thick either. They are not worth the $110 asking price by any means. Price was on the website and in the advertisement in the newest Genii for anyone that wants to look it up.

Later,
DK

I think the "Black Beauty" cups are great epecially when used in addition to the Foxy cups which they "nest" perfectly in. I like when I put them in my sportsjacket pocket it doesn't shift the lay of the jacket. They, also, look very benign and more like a receptacle you would see in "real life". The price of $110.00 is cheap when you consider that you can take them with you as an added bonus without the hassle of large Cups. When I look at them I think carbon fiber (like my Ducati) not "plastic".

The heavy sound & solid nature of the traditional metal cups is an important part of some routining in Cs&Bs (e.g. passing cup through cups), or the wand through cups. Without that extra bit if re-inforcement throgh the sound of metal-on-metal I can't see that a resin set of cups is as versatile.

I believe in seeing the product and handling it before I pass any kind of real judgment on it. I have ordered a set of Black Beauty Cups from Mike.

I was wrong about one thing. Mike is not injection molding these cups. The Black Beauty cups are machined out of a solid piece of Delrin®.

Delrin® is tougher than aluminum and probably tougher than brass. It also has the advantage of not denting very easily. Delrin is somewhat flexible, which is one reason it is used for various types of plectra (picks). I use Delrin® plectra in my harpsichord. They last far better than any other material that harpsichordists generally use. In fact, very few players use goose or turkey quills any longer. I will give these cups a solid test, though. I spoke with Mike at length this morning, and he is sending me several sets of cups to look at.

I'll give a straightforward review of them.

I don't understand the black things. Why black?
Is anyone super duper glad that they are black?

In 1972, Roy Fromer wrote "The Cups: A Manual of Cups and Balls Magic." He had a number of ideas that were an inspiration to me.

One idea was to obtain black cups (he suggested painting them with black enamel) and use miniature 1-1/2" crystal balls. The idea was for the "sophisticated tux and champagne magician."

He also suggested taking the black cups and decorating them with "spooky Halloween gummed seals", use small plastic skulls as balls, and make it a "Spook Show" feature, or a conversation maker at a "family room seance."

Now whether or not magicians will buy black cups remains to be seen, but I think that they have definite possibilities for those who want to present the classic with a different look and possibly different twist as Fromer suggested.

Terry

I would think that a bronze or brass colored colorant would make them look really nice. I wouldn't use black cups because I usually dress in black. There just wouldn't be enough contrast.

You can always spray paint them to a proper color