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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21560 Posts 
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A close up magician, doing table work, and I left out the words “at a restaurant” probably doesn’t need it.
So yes you have a “gotcha” moment are you happy? In spite of the fact that you made the single silliest argument possible. Do you believe asking a person to pick a card is the same as them coming on stage? Go on keep trying to make that ridiculous case it will actually be the first time you write something amusing here. Explain what effective liability a person is open to asking a person to pick a card that is equal to walking on a stage like when Copperfield had those people trip during the audience vanish. You claim it is the same. Go ahead explain it for me how it is millions of dollars of liability asking someone to pick a card. Then go ahead and explain what I asked easier why the only thing you care about is the cheapest way to fake some sort of coverage if you get asked for this so often. You still haven’t answered why the only thing you seem to consider is what is cheapest? Or you can not keep going, and we can continue to actually put out information without you acting like a child and trying to play gotcha. Or you can continue to derail this thread by pretending to be something. Considering that you have told us you don’t really do that many shows let’s your anecdotal experience is just that. But why do you look for cheapest way to do things? I bet you never answer that.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3204 Posts
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Why wouldn’t they need it at a restaurant? Unless they asked for it, they may consider you a part of the staff and you wouldn’t need it.
Still, any person operating as a business needs insurance. Just a few years ago the only ones offering it to magicians, so it seemed, was the SAM and IBM. But now all you have to do is search and you find many companies offering it. Lots of competition now and its cheaper. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21560 Posts
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Actually that is ridiculous. Many places offered it for a long time.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3204 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 12, 2024, Dannydoyle wrote: Yes that's why I said "So It Seemed" Yes It's always been offered, but very few knew about it. I'm sure you can find other posts on here asking about it. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21560 Posts
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If you want to claim nobody but professionals knew about it that is WAY different from it not being offered. You made a very false statement.
If you are paid as an employee a restaurant won’t need it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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danfreed Inner circle West Chester PA 1377 Posts
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One place to get liability insurance is World Clown Association, you don't need to be a clown, they cover most entertainers. They seems to be the least expensive if I remember right. One factor in the decision of who to go with is if they charge extra for making you an additional insured, some charge extra, some don't. If I remember right, many entertainer insurance companies actually are sort of just middle-men that go through Rice or whatever.
Dan Freed
AKA The Amazing Spaghetti https://www.magiciandanfreed.com/birthday-party-magician-for-kids http://thecaricatureartist.com http://magiciandanfreed.com |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3204 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 12, 2024, Dannydoyle wrote: Danny why do we have to always explain everything to you a dozen times? It's not a false statement at all. When I say “SO IT SEEMS” that means it just seems that way. It’s not true, it just 'seems' like it's true. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 819 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 12, 2024, Dannydoyle wrote: Yes. Quote:
In spite of the fact that you made the single silliest argument possible. Do you believe asking a person to pick a card is the same as them coming on stage? Go on keep trying to make that ridiculous case it will actually be the first time you write something amusing here. Explain what effective liability a person is open to asking a person to pick a card that is equal to walking on a stage like when Copperfield had those people trip during the audience vanish. You claim it is the same. Go ahead explain it for me how it is millions of dollars of liability asking someone to pick a card. They are not the same in the level of liability coverage they need, they are exactly equal in that they both need insurance. Quote:
Then go ahead and explain what I asked easier why the only thing you care about is the cheapest way to fake some sort of coverage if you get asked for this so often. You still haven't answered why the only thing you seem to consider is what is cheapest? They reason why it seems that way is the thoughts in your head. I think a person should buy what they need at the best price available. That means if a person does 5 shows a year, it might make more sense to buy 5 $25 plans for a total of $125 than an annual plan at $300 plus. If they need an annual plan, get that at the best price they can at the level of coverage they need. You also said: "fake some kind of coverage", are you referring to Thimble? Obviously, I can't vouch for the legitimacy of that or any other company, but implying they are issuing fake policies is a pretty grand claim. Quote:
Or you can not keep going, and we can continue to actually put out information without you acting like a child and trying to play gotcha. Or you can continue to derail this thread by pretending to be something. Considering that you have told us you don't really do that many shows let's your anecdotal experience is just that. But why do you look for cheapest way to do things? I bet you never answer that. I don't like wasting money. Notice that I have actually given information throughout this thread, your goal seems to be fighting with folks no matter what. Even if that means switching from a "All serious professionals need insurance" position to a "maybe not restaurant folks, or people who just do card tricks" position. I said I wouldn't take the bait, but I guess I just did. Thanks, Dan, for pointing out another company. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21560 Posts
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My lord it is exactly like talking with a child.
A guy who is an employee at a restaurant, like a bartender, may not really have to get insurance will he? You call it "taking the bait" and other adults refer to it as acting childish to get a "gotcha" moment in a desperate attempt to seem more than you are. If a guy is asking you to pick a card, it is NOT the same level of liability as taking control of a person when you have them on a stage. Almost 100% of people who do stage work need insurance simply for people walking on and off a stage. You continue to argue this as if you have a point of some sort. If a guys is doing card tricks table to table at a restaurant it doesn't really seem like a lot of restaurants make you get insurance to do so. In the end that is sort of what drives this process. Private gigs are WAY different. If you are an employee, like a bartender or server and doing tricks for more tips, well then you DO NOT need insurance, you need the consent of the establishment. Would I recommend it for servers and bartenders who are on salary? No. Not when they are working in the place with consent. "Should" a restaurant magician have it? Yea. I think that they should. Does a restaurant mandate it? It seems as if not too many really do. Then again the amount of liability is fairly low certainly if you avoid fire and balloons. Should ALL balloon twisters have liability insurance? OH HECK YEA! Again it might not be mandated industry wide but it is probably a great idea. Should anyone who uses fire for any reason have it? I believe so. I have not heard a horror story of a fire wallet burning down a restaurant or what not, but maybe they exist. And no I am not referring to Thimble at all. I am referring to YOU wanting to seem as if you have coverage. You seem to have a lot of facades that you try to use. Business insurance is the cost of doing business. It is an expense, and baked into the cake if you want to be a professional entertainer. It really is that simple. Paying for insurance SUCKS! We buy it for different reasons than they sell it. We buy it in case something happens. They sell it hoping nothing will happen and based on it not happening. And to buy something to protect against something that most likely won't happen just BITES!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 819 Posts
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If you define "acting childish" as pointing out internet troll's inconsistent statements
than that is certainly what I'm doing. Here's another one, you just wrote to me: Quote:
"Should" a restaurant magician have it? Yea. I think that they should. Yet just yesterday you told our mutual friend Tom: Quote:
"In 2024 restaurants are VERY concerned with this. Because if they have Try to dance out of this all day long, but these two things are not just incompatible, they directly contradict. The fact you make up positions just to argue with folks is what's childish. Also, who was talking about bartenders and waiters? Yeah, the waiter isn't going to need his own liability insurance, but considering exactly no one has either mentioned or thought about them but you I would say you are most definitely the one derailing the thread. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21560 Posts
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Yea a guy doing magic behind the bar or as a server to get more tips never happened in the history of magic. "Magic Bartender" is not a term. Oh lord.
And I am responsible for what I say, not for what you pull out of context to intentionally misunderstand. In context, I was telling Tom that expecting the venue (Restaurant, banquet hall.) to use THEIR insurance IF something happened was not bright thinking. It was a discussion that YOU want to pull out of context to try to make some "gotcha" moment to make up for your lack of experience. Good plan. The "very bad way of thinking" was to let THEM make a claim on THEIR insurance. Here was the context of what Tom was saying. " Even with the daycare centers, restaurants, etc, they already have property, content, and liability insurance of their own, so they’re not as worried as some may think." HE VERY specifically mentioned restaurants. He implied that they would make a claim on THEIR insurance. Nobody making up different positions at all. I was NOT even speaking to if someone should have insurance working in restaurants (Though it isn't such a bad idea.) but rather to the crazy notion that another should carry YOUR insurance burden. More speaking to the fact that restaurants ARE quite worried that they don't have to make a claim on their own insurance if you screw up something. And I know of no restaurants that mandate a close-up magician doing card tricks has insurance against destroying property. Does one exist? Probably. I just don't know of one is all. Does this mean you should make others be responsible for you as a professional? Naw it doesn't. I hope you can follow that. Go back and look at the discussion in the entirety so you look less foolish next time. In reality it is funny how a "troll" to you is someone who is showing you how you might just not be quite correct in an assertion. Can you now back up and just let people get real information? Are you done playing "out of context theater" so we can actually discuss? There is no need to do this. Do you want to show us on the doll where your feelings were hurt?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 819 Posts
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Was all that the foxtrot or cha-cha?
Guess what, if that establishment is "quite worried" the best way to mitigate that is to have the performer have coverage so they don't become the deepest pockets. This is one of the same reasons why a good many venues want you to be insured. A troll to me is someone who unironically ends their post: "Do you want to show us on the doll where your feelings were hurt?" Anyway, thanks to everyone that has contributed so far, I should have some comparisons between companies up in a day or two. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3204 Posts
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NO, I never said that we should just expect them to file on their own insurance, we all know that wouldn’t happen if something did go wrong. That’s just you twisting things again Danny. I was simply implying that in the back of their mind they weren’t worried about it as much as some think.
I’ve been clear that anybody in business should have some type of insurance. I know from experience that when you have to use it, it’s not always what you thought it would be, but it's always better than having nothing. You never will understand insurance completely until you've used it, but let's hope you never have too. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21560 Posts
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Yea Fedora sarcasm is great when you just can't manage to refute facts LOL. Bravo! Why does talking about things in context bother you so much? Because you can't support your ridiculous claims? Yea. I like the way you just gloss over where you are unequivocally shown wrong and want to never talk about it.
Show me how many restaurants want tableside magicians to have insurance. I have said I do not know of any, but that only speaks to me not knowing much about it. Maybe EVERYONE does! I am really not sure, which I have made clear. Funny how this is the hill you want to die on here. I also think it is much different for someone doing special events and hiring a magician. If you are again bringing up folks to help the trip hazard and if you use fire or what not it really would make me as a venue force a policy on you. A banquet hall situation is what I am thinking. But if that same performer was in the restaurant would they require a table hopping magician to have one? I am not sure. But as all John Knowles fans can tell you “Sarcasm... the protest of those who are weak.” Although many writers have differing viewpoints.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21560 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 13, 2024, TomBoleware wrote: "Even with the daycare centers, restaurants, etc, they already have property, content, and liability insurance of their own, so they’re not as worried as some may think." This was word for word what you wrote. You can't look at this objectively and not come away thinking it is reasonable to conclude that you would use their policy. You didn't mean that. OK cool. I am happy to hear that. I am sorry I interpreted it as such and will not say or imply it any further. Seriously. I got it wrong, I did not twist your words. Two entirely different propositions. If I was twisting your words intentionally, I'd dig in and make excuses for it and keep going. If I got it wrong I'd admit it and apologize like an adult and move on. I'm choosing the latter. I will tell you in restaurants specifically with OSHA and with ServeSafe and with all the regulations that come down on them worse every day minute by minute, not to mention HR issues, in reality they think about these things MORE than you might imagine. The whole business is coming to risk mitigation. It is almost what HR is designed for any more. Daycares and such I have no clue. But as far as restaurants you might be mistaken. Yes I agree that insurance on any level from auto to home to commercial quite unpleasant to deal with. It almost never ends up being the coverage you believe you have. That being said would you agree then that the purchasing decision should be based more upon things such as company reputation, how fast they react, customer service and things of this nature instead of the cost? I am with you 100% that using it for ANY reason is a fate I would never wish upon anyone. It is BECAUSE it is so difficult that it should not be a price concern.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10683 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 12, 2024, Fedora wrote: I suggest you don't. This is exactly where problems happen here on the Cafe. By posting numbers you are preventing people here from doing their own research and due diligence. TB is great for getting info, the proper content and context, and and creating awareness and direction on something, but you can not handhold or do it for them. Another reason is because the numbers will soon change and be outdated yet the thread and post will remain for reference for years to come, so the numbers will then become confusing and inaccurate. Plus, people should do their own research and compare on the factors that are most important to them, and as already pointed out it should not be based (just) on price. We must always be careful when posting such things because people can take in incorrectly, mistakenly, and not fully learn about it when it is seemingly done for them. Plus it will also only lead to more opinions and interpretations. This is the type of thing that really helps no one. Plus the numbers are not the only proper representation for what each company offers, as there are many other considerations that should be factored in. This consumer shopping mentality is not what is needed here. Also why? What real purpose will it serve other than to create more problems here when not needed or necessary? |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10683 Posts
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Haha, great minds think alike. I guess I was posting at the same time you were, put the points firmly remain.
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 819 Posts
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Noot sure how anyone could misinterpret what Tom meant but okay.
Generally, when you say a person is "unequivocally wrong" about something, it's good for that person to have actually been wrong about something. This goes double for "ridicules claims", of which me making one would be an example of. Mindpro, I would argue it would be helpful not just in a price comparison, but to inform on the many options that's out there. At least one of these I have found has such a hole in its policy it would fall to the bottom of any list. But I have seen some folks who actually recommend it, possibly not reading what it covers. None the less, I will hold off on posting it. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21560 Posts
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Who is trolling now? A misunderstand happened between adults. I apologized, Tom graciously accepted and adults move on. Children keep trying to stir the pot and lose all credibility. Way to go. This shows exactly who you are nice.
This is what happens when adults can admit being wrong.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 819 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 12, 2024, Dannydoyle wrote: Just out of curiosity, did Tom "accept" this apology through PM? Because this isn't on the public forum. |
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Posted: Aug 12, 2024 06:33 pm 
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