Out of curiosity what concern is of yours? You seem to want to keep stirring this up just for your own agenda. Also interesting how you quoted accepted in your question to imply he didn’t. Just a toxic childish comment.

Fact is regardless of if Tom is gracious enough to accept (which he has been.) I stood up, accepted responsibility and apologized. (By the way there is a lesson in there you could learn.) There is no need to continue except to try to keep being antagonistic. To be a troll. Nobody involved wants to continue but you want to keep it alive. It shows what exactly you are about. It exposes you for exactly who you are.

See adults can make mistakes. It happens. Being adult enough to take all ego out of it and admit it is the way to move forward. You have not grown up enough to learn this lesson. It works that way in business as well. It is NOT about never making a mistake. It is about how you handle it once you do. Admitting you are wrong is the first step, which you are incapable of taking. Get out of your feelings and let your ego go. There is right and wrong and in many cases no other choices. It is really not that hard to admit wrong for adults. Yes children have lots of trouble. In the end you gain grudging respect from others when you do this.

But the worst person is the guy who has to keep two others fighting for his own agenda. Everything all settled and the guy just has to keep it going for his own entertainment. Yea kind of says all you need to know about that guy.

If you’re keeping track it is long time past for you to step back and apologize. Couple of reasons as a matter of fact. But you won’t, we all know it.

You bring up an excellent point. I have always said "You don't know what you don't know" which is very true here in this as well.

Regardless of the back and forth that has incurred here, it has been nice to see some action here in Tricky Business...other than "Meet Beautifuls Womens in your area" lately.

Here's the thing...conversations and discussions beget other topics, questions, and ideas and areas of interest that come up and as a result of a current topic. It's progression, which is also what business really is. So many books and courses have their primary chapters or included topics but since it is a one-way conversation, anything else or additional content, topics or questions that may come out of it ever develop or progress. People often do not understand the power of coaching but this is one of the greatest appeals and benefits is that when other questions, ideas or topics come up and as a result of something in the content or curriculum it can immediately be addressed and included. This is huge. I can't tell you how great of value this really is.

To me this is also a primary benefit of a forum such as this. When members do not derail a topic, they will usually start another topic on the new question or interest which is what keeps the forum moving forward, progressive, and evolving. It is this that makes it a great resource as well.

Danny, I was pointing out you had an exchange about something no one could actually see.

Back to the insurance topic, one popular one that seems to have a hidden issue
is K&K, which is pretty popular and from an old company.

This is the actual cheapest option by the way.

And it seems like a good one, A $1.000.000 policy, with a $5.000.000 aggregate
(that's not a typo). $1.000.000 rented premises as well.

But there's a catch they don't advertise, personal and advertising coverage
appears to be excluded. That might explain the lower price but not why
you have to be halfway through purchasing for it to list that.

It's pretty odd for this to be excluded, most others list it, including
Specialty and even Thimble.

Funny enough, Hub, which is the Canadian one Donald mentioned lists personal injury.
Hub is backed by K&K.

No you were trying to keep a problem going that has nothing to do with you like a troll. Everyone has seen you for who you are.

I think you are getting into an area of brokers versus, insurance companies versus underwriting companies. Many of the companies you are mentioning are just agents or insurance agencies for major companies or underwriters. This is where it can get confusing which is what I would avoid here.

By the way here is a tip. Use a comma and not a period when writing number figures. It makes it seem more like you actually know what you are saying.

Tom made a very very good point. And I’ll say it again, Tom made a very good point. You never really know Scott how it works until you go through it.

This is one of those cases where simple Google research is not as helpful as it seems if you have no clue the difference in a broker and an underwriter. It is a great illustration of why just Google research on price and supposed coverage without actual knowledge is not useful. It is the difference in information and knowledge. Information is 2+2=4. Knowledge is don’t put out a campfire with your face.

Unfortunately information here is not quite as useful as knowledge.

I am fully aware of the difference between brokers and underwriters.

I did reread through the thread though, and I noticed something interesting.
When I mentioned earlier on Danny flip flopping positions to fight with folks,
pointing out his take that restaurants don't care about insurance and that
This contradicted his statement to Tom that restaurants
are very concerned in 2024.

He tried to dance around this by claiming he wasn't implying restaurants cared
about insurance to Tom, but that he misunderstood and thought Tom was saying
something else.

But as it turns out, Tom wasn't the first person he claimed to that restaurants care
about insurance, it was actually me, on August 10th.

Notice it says, "theater or RESTAIRANT". Now you could continue the dance and
say: "that's out of context! Two totally different things! That was about insurance
of rentals not liability!" or he could grow up and acknowledge he flip flops
positions to be adversarial to me, Tom, and anyone else he feels likes.

As for my using full stops in numbers, that's very common internationally.
And even if it was a typo, if he wants to go that route, we'll be here
a month going through his.

Oh, and here's a tip, be consistent in your positions, it makes it
seem you actually know what you're saying.

What are you babbling about? My lord you just can't grow up. How much international business do you part take in regularly?

So how do you spell "restaurant"? Hint, it is NOT "RESTAIRANT". (Let me guess that is common "internationally" because you do all the business internationally?) Funny how you want to claim typo when you have done it CONSISTENTLY. Not a typo, a MISTAKE. A regular one. But funny how you claim all my typos, but here you have one right here. Irony much?

Interesting how you just want to dig in your childish arguments, and don't want to answer or refute the facts brought up. You claim the correct recitation of facts is somehow a dance. Not true it is just correcting you, which really is becoming a full time job.

Why do you continue to do this? It makes you just look SO bad. You just can't help yourself can you? Just HAVE to be the last word and seen as somehow witty. I guess your half right. Have you ever done regular weekly table hopping at a restaurant, or a RESTAIRANT?

And to be clear there is no inconsistency of position. I do not know of a single restaurant (Or even a RESTAIRANT for what it is worth.) that requires one to have insurance for table hopping. I just don't. Is there one? I'd guess there probably is. Once you get to banquet halls (Which by the way I am not sure if it is true internationally but in the US they often have them attached to restaurants, and some of the higher end RESTAIRANTS have them as well.) and you are doing a sort of makeshift stage situation and you have lights and sound and cables they WANT you to have insurance generally. If they do require it $100,000 just isn't going to cover that need on the part of the client. Certainly the same is true of the theater.

I know you are having a hard time wrapping your head around subtle differences, which shows your inexperience wonderfully. It is that which causes you to be so desperate for someone to watch you that you walk out on a pier, uninvited on a windy day to show magic. But there is a not so subtle difference between a person doing close-up magic at tables that is hired by the establishment or a bartender/server doing tricks and a guy doing walk around magic. For your point to be true you MUST make that the same thing and it simply isn't. It is WAY different.

I am saying, and still say that doing table magic I do not know of one restaurant asking for insurance of any sort. Going table to table doing magic there MUST be one who requires it I should imagine. I simply do not know of one and have not heard of one. The interesting part is that SO many guys who do restaurant work already HAVE insurance because of the other shows they do! So maybe this contributes to it not being such a big issue. I have no clue. Generally speaking the restaurant table magician is not going to be in a position to have a spectator accidentally trip coming on stage with them. A guy doing makeshift stage work has a much greater opportunity for this to happen. Also the liability of someone just tripping in an aisle going for popcorn.

I am pretty sure I have been fairly consistent in these positions except for when you try to quote everything out of context to make some really pointless argument. Funny how you want to proclaim others a "troll" when every post here to me you have been one since you got your feelings SO hurt because I asked you to show us on the doll where your feelings were hurt.

Get over it and stop dragging this down. Quit stomping your feet and acting like this. Really all you have to do is stop. If your feelings are hurt just stop.

Of coarse you couldn't resist the low hanging fruit of the misspelling, some minds
are like that. Other minds might have picked up on it being a trap by the fact
I spelled it right four times in that post and all capped the misspelling.

But of coarse you couldn't, anymore than you could resist using the misspelling
in ways you thought were witty throughout the post. (It wasn't)

You seem to have run out of dance moves, saying when you said restaurant you actually
meant the banquet hall attached to some of them is a very weak argument.

Might be better if banquet halls weren't just as often their own venue or attached to hotels
or any other building than a restaurant.

Saying banquet halls when you mean banquet halls and restaurants when you mean restaurants
is good policy.

The accusations of dragging things down and "my feelings are hurt" might be more powerful
if I was the one writing walls of text.

Oh sure it was a trap LOL. HILARIOUS. You are SO clever to show that you are either INTENTIONALLY dragging this thread down and trolling, or just incompetent. Nice. But that might hold more water if you hadn't completely screwed up "of coarse" so many times in your latest post. Hard to believe your trap story when incompetent is happening so often.

You really now have shown you are just here to troll. You just admitted it. Stop it.

I guess nobody is allowed to clarify things right? I am responsible for what I say, not for what you understand, which unfortunately is quite little either because you are trolling or incompetent.

I was trying to explain exactly what was meant, but you want to play the Greg Brady "exact words" game instead of having a discussion like an adult.

So not that you have trolled about the Tom thing and are now done with the spelling trap are you done acting like a child so adults can speak?

Does clarifying include editing your post to be three time longer so the next guy has
to rewrite his? Short version.

Based on the messages I've gotten the adults are quite scared to post.

Before you say: "it's because of your childish antics", keep in mind your fourth post to me started:
"define aggregate, no google!", it takes a special kind of fish to put himself on the other
side of that one.

What? Now editing posts is prohibited by you? Maybe you’d have to make fewer excuses like a spelling trap if you edited.

Way to go you really have lost it.

Yes based on the messages I’m getting everyone feels sorry you looking pathetic. Just stop.

I believe I understood what Danny was meaning when he said restaurant. Working as a table hopper, insurance is not going to be a determining factor, yet if that same restaurant is being used as a venue for a 3 wall or 4 wall, there is a greater responsibility involved, which would be reason for a COI.

What I have garnered from this thread:

Insurance is a needed/good investment for a full time professional.
Insurance is a good investment for a some time professional... but a different coverage
The weekend hobby performer, more than likely does not need it, yet it is something to consider, especially if presenting things that could potentially harm or damage.

No if you working as an 'employee' you don’t need it. If you tear the place up, they will just fire you and file on their insurance.

A part-timer or a small-time magician will NEVER find a PERFECT insurance policy that they can afford. There will always be some 'what if's' with the cheaper plans. But regardless of what plan you have, you never come out ahead by filing a claim. Even with the higher priced plans, there is usually a deductible that you have to pay, and then you can count on your rates going up or your policy being canceled. The insurance company is not going to lose money in the long run, you can bet on that. A businessperson needs to be aware of what could happen and have safety measures in place to PREVENT accidents from happening. It's easy to think, oh I got insurance, and I have nothing to worry about. But safety has to be top of the mind regardless of how good your insurance is.

Over my business lifetime I’ve probably spent millions of dollars on business and employee insurance. Paying high premiums is not easy, but it’s needed and, in some cases, required by law, so some don’t really have a choice. It’s just a part of doing business and the cost has to be a part of your expenses. You can never have too much but it's also easy to have more than you need. If that makes sense. Sometimes its hard to find the right balance to fit the budget. But again, it’s just a part of doing business, and like everything else you have to pass the cost on to the customer.

As for as a policy for the part-timer and small-timers, they don’t need full coverage like most businesses do. I see no problem with SAM, IBM, Clown Association, Thimble, etc. Any policy is better than no policy, and I think I did notice that Thimble does have legal protection coverage with theirs, and it is important to have another insurance fighting for you if there is a major dispute between the two parties.

Tom

So Tom what you are saying is always cause enough damage to come out ahead on your deductible. Got it.

(Yes that was me intentionally twisting words. It was humorous not malicious as I know that wasn’t your point at all.)

But your real point has something to do with an ounce of prevention and a pound of cure. Yep that is the way. Waste every dollar of insurance money by never having a claim. Fewer claims is definitely way better than anything.

Also consider what the weekend performer can lose in a claim. Your house, car, savings and so forth. We haven’t been able to get to it because of the childish trolling but the consequences of not having it or not the right amount are devastating.

I agree with some of what has been said, yet disagree with just about as much as well.

The one biggest things I think that should be taken away from this thread is, sure the topic of insurance and the performer, yes, but different than it being about rates, agents, etc. The issue itself. But to me the greater thing which is being glossed over (except for Wravyn) is the part of the post title "...for part-timers."

There are many things that part-timers ignore, feel doesn't apply to them, completely don't understand or worse yet are completely unaware of, or should not be a concern because they are "just part-timers" and "not professionals." There is so much and so many topics relative to this that could fill pages of green space for years if addressed.

Most "magician's" are part-timers, yet they do not seem to want to address these issues (or care to). Instead they try to go toe to toe with longtime established working professionals (which I will never understand) which is just crazy to me. It serves no purpose other than ego or the very weak and almost meaningless "we are all entitled to an opinion."

There are so many great conversations that could (and really need to) be made addressing the part-time performer. There are things as Wravyn said that they don't even know to ask or think about, or have no idea about. Heck many do not even think they are part-timers and see themselves completely different that reality uncovers. So much...

To me that is the greatest takeaway from this entire thread.

All opinions should be welcome here. And that includes the people who disagree with your opinion. And if they have more facts on their side, their opinions are worth more than yours. In a democratic society, and especially on an open forum like this, with the sign saying welcome all magicians, we must recognize that everyone has the right to form and express their own opinions, even if those opinions differ from our own. This is a fundamental principle of free speech and open discourse. After all, how can we grow and learn if we are not exposed to a diversity of perspectives and are willing to consider views that challenge our own?

Those wanting all the say, can write a book, it’s that simple really.

As for as this thread, I personally think it is sad that Fedora can’t share a list of insurance providers for magicians, on a thread that HE started, without being harnessed to death.

That’s my opinion,
Tom

Maybe he would be taken more seriously if he didn’t act like a child?

But certainly the idea of expressing free speech goes both ways doesn’t it? Why is it every time someone disagrees with you it is harassment? I thought you said everyone can have an opinion? Tom it really has to be one or the other. If Fedora wants no feedback then he should take your advice and write a book.

Either we can all speak freely or nobody can. It seems hypocritical for you to espouse the great free speech doctrine while attempting to stifle others.

You would think that with the right to speak freely comes the responsible to be respectable to others.
Not downright rude enough to border on hate speech.

Tom