Q: Why charge such a high fee?

A: Well, if you saw the amount of work that goes into each unit, you would understand. Bob Fitch, Bob Kohler, and Thomas Wayne have solved all of the problems normally associated with gravity holdout work. You are also getting the instructional DVDs, which contain all of Bob Kohler and Bob Fitch's work on the holdout. They are giving you like fifty years of experience here. I think the majority of the people that complain about the price can't afford the price and therefore complain about it because they have nothing better to do. It really is worth more than they are asking. And who in the heck is forcing you to buy the thing? If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Don't knock people because you can't afford it or there isn't a "video demo". They are also in their fourth run of the units, so the pice in not preventing those who are serious from obtaining the device.

Q: Why are they selling it?

A: To elevate your magic to another level. Obviously they are keeping the secret, as you have no idea what it is.

Q: Why no video demos?

A: Bob has his own reasons for this, so I won't get into them for him. I have purchased many products sight unseen and only by reputation. If you want the real work on the holdout, this is it.

I am sure Bob and Thomas will have some input here, but I hope that helped a little.

Take care,
Karl Miller

It shouldn't be assumed that because one complains about the price that one can't afford it.

One may not have placed the same value or significance on the item.

Cheers - El Lamo

As I mentioned before, I have seen the holdout. I have seen it in action. As far as the necessity for different attachments, well, when you use a holdout you begin to want to have various ways of accomplishing things with it. An attachment that works for some playing cards won't work for a billiard ball. But if you are using the holdout primarily for one purpose, you use the attachment for that purpose. Obviously, you aren't going to change things out in the middle of your act.

But it's not just the holdout, itself. There are things they have done to the hookup that prevent certain types of accidents. I can't say any more than this without exposing.

If you are a professional who wants the best holdout available, this is it.

Walter, if your car cost as little as this holdout, I hope you are a mechanic!

Bill, how hard is it to set up and use in the middle of a real performance? How does it feel to use it?

Many thanks for your info.

Best regards,
glenn Godsey

In response to your comment Mr. Palmer, I am not a mechanic... I'm a "starving" college student.

And Karl, I'd like to say that anyone who's familiar with the Jack Miller holdout should have a pretty good grasp of what this gimmick is... you don't seem to know what you're talking about.
Aside from that, anyone with brains would want to see what they're buying, even if they CAN afford it. If you disagree, then you are simply a spendthrift.

I never claimed that I wanted to see the exact mechanics of the thing. The reason I wanted to see it in action is so that I can judge for myself if the technique truely is improved and not have to take other people's word for it... albeit there have been many credible magicians raving about it.

If I wanted to know about or have a good look at the holdout, I'd express my interest to Mr. Fitch or Mr. Kohler directly.

WalterZ:

It is not enough to "know" what a Miller holdout is. If you have ever used one long enough to realize its true potential, you will also have realized some of its limitations.

If you have something so promising that is also frustratingly prone to mistep, difficult to work with, uncomfortable and difficult to set-up; you look for mechanical solutions that will make working with it more pleasant and more sure.

If you have never performed the cups and balls, it is easy to wonder why anyone would spend more than $50 on a set of cups. They are just cups, right? On the other hand, if you have performed for any length of time with the cups, you begin to think of all the little things that would make working with them simpler, more pleasant, and more powerful. Those are the things that should be, and usually are, incorporated in the expensive sets of cups--balance, weight, shape, design, sheen, material, size, etc. all matter when you want "perfection."

What's the difference between a $15 dollar violin from a pawn shop and a Stradavarius? A great musician can make beautiful music with either one. But a great musician would choose the superior instrument if he had a choice. It is more comfortable and responsive in action, has superior tone, and so on. These little differences would mean nothing to someone who was just learning the violin, and may not even be noticeable. But to the expert, the sum of these tiny little improvements are worth a king's ransom--it is like the "pearl of great price."

Most of the complaints that I hear about the price of expensive magic products is the result of people looking at products designed for the pros with the eyes of an amateur. If you don't understand the marketing strategy of Kohler, you are not in his intended demographic.

By making more than one of something you are creating for yourself, you can justify the time and expense invested a little easier. Most of the products that I have released are simply the result of creating the prop of my dreams, and making more of them than I need, and selling them, is simply the most cost effective way for me to have them for myself.

I know that this is similar to the way Bob and Bob developed the holdout.


Posted: Jun 24, 2005 2:48pm
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If you buy by the pound and sell to your friends by the kilo; you pay for your time, do your friends a favor, and have what you need for free. It is "Free Enterprise."

Wouldn't you think $75 a ridiculous price to pay for a spark plug? Kyle Petty might not think so.

If you buy a pound and sell a kilo you lost 1.2 pounds. There are 2.2 pounds in a kilo, now if you purchased a kilo and sold a pound you would be ahead (pun intended)

Bill

How many here use a holdout at all? Of you, how many switch attachments in the course of your act? How long did it take to get bruised, tangled, snagged, torn shirts, scratched and more in the process of getting the thing to work. Once you have used a holdout you will likely want to explore ... or abandon it. Those who stuck through the process know. Probably a matter of commitment.

I would like to think that the quality and quantity of the venues one performs in, and what paying audiences say about a performer, are accurate ways of judging who is professional and who isn’t…

In order to sell a product, we must consider two variables. The consumer must A) Want the product B) be able to afford it. If either of these two variables is missing, the consumer will not make the purchase.
The average “professional” magician (sadly) doesn’t quite make all the much money. Therefore, to say that an expensive product is marketed to professionals isn’t necessarily true at all. The average professional magician that uses a holdout or needs one may desire this particular item, but cannot afford such an investment and thus one variable is missing. If we refer to the supply and demand curve in economics, we see that when quantity demanded is greater than the quantity supplied, we get what economists refer to as a shortage. Needless to say, a shortage is not an efficient way to maximize producer surplus (technical term for profits, well-being etc...).
However, there’s another flaw in your claim: not all professional magicians utilize a holdout and on the other hand, some amateurs might. What makes you think that only professionals belong to this category?


Posted: Jul 1, 2005 4:42pm
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If the building materials really did cost a tremendous amount, then I agree completely with your philosophy of free enterprise.

Guys, at least the Bob's have made the holdout available. Some folks have waited over twenty years to get such a thing. There is the intended market. The sorry critters who just want everything for free are not the intended market.

To those who would like to discuss the economics of OTHER people's businesses, I recommend reading Ayn Rand's book Atlas Shrugged.

Just so you know, I have taken most of my work into a private market and the only way to get my stuff is to treat it as secret, NOT to be discussed on any BBS etc. A low price unless you feel the need to gossip or show off to magicians. There is no free lunch.

Wow...haven't looked at this post in a long time...still lots of quibbling over price, value, practicality and efficiency....From a left brained perspective, I would probably argue those same ideas. I tend however to know that mine and Bob Kohler's product with the help of Thomas Wayne is conceived from a Right brained perspective. I've used it for 51 years, Bob, perhaps for 18...I was someone who stuck with the holdout despite its awkward problems. I got Bob Kohler interested in its use. Together we bemoaned the problems inherent in the Jack Miller model...

Together we outlined the problems and decided that we would like to fix them; reasoning that those problems were the reasons so few people could use it in a practical fashion. The solutions are major....(You can read about them on Bob K's website <www.bobkohlermagic.com> But briefly: You can take off and put on your coat without mishaps....You can adjust its length simply without retying string or readjusting pins...you can change ends, i.e. on and off, with one hand...the holdout can change weights for different coats or a shirt even....the "business end" doesn't have all its weight and paraphenalia at the wrist....some attachments are symmetrical...e.g. cigarette or silk holders...some are not, eg..ball ends. We wanted the HO to deliver the ends directly to the hand in the proper position and not jiggle from side to side...ours does that.....We approached Tommy Wonder about buying his lock, a brilliant idea outlined in his book...He wanted $750.00 for each one....I don't think so...besides we wanted a lock that would stay locked when not in use and when in use wouldn't lock....Thomas Wayne figured it our. Its made of
stainless steele and the hardest plastic.....There are new attachments and newer ones coming up......Did you see the LVMI (Danny Archer) DVD? I used a holdout and topit and sleeving and pocketing....Did you see the first Chris Angel Special? He used a HO....Also its enclosed in a beautiful leather case by Joe Porper.

Its an expensive item to make. Lots of exacting machining. We have a combined experience of 69 years. Make money? Sure...I'd like to...I wouldn't have released it at all, if it hadn't been for Bob Kohler, who talked me into it. To me its one of the last great secrets and needs to have the respect that our information age doesn't usually allow. With my attachment included...there are 7 DVD's explaining the use, care, wearing, getting objects, getting rid of objects and routines with all of the attachments. 2 DVD's alone on mine. Everyone who's used it have touted its effectiveness and stealth and relative simplicity to use (after practice, of course)...I wanted my work to stand on its own...to further the art in magic...

We didn't want it ripped off by the "Masked magician" or unethical dealers. That's why we hold it close to the belt. The magi that we swore to secrecy, who would also go to court for us as witnesses in case of fraud...after seeing it most of them bought it. No, we don't advertise...though its listed on our websites. Ads are expensive and usually are for the general reader...there's not that much profit...and those that feel they have a special need to do something that much better or to solve a problem that only a HO cam solve know where to go to get it. And if they get it ... they don't talk about it. They don't really want anyone to know that they've got it. It speaks for itself....So I hope this solves the incomprehensible querying and nattering that's ensued. But I suppose the frustrations of those that feel they have the right to know everything will still be heard....I am glad I released it. I'm proud of our work with it. I know its a major contribution to the world of magic. And I thank all of you who have come to its defense. Bob Fitch

I have seen the Fitch-Kohler holdout in operation. It's worth every penny they're charging for it. I rigged up a gravity hold-out after buying Hold Out Miracles. Fishing weights and line, what a mess that was. I did not have the perserverence to make it work, for me. I sensed the power of the device. I was not smart enough to go on with it.

I liken the Hold-out to a Topit. It is a utility device. Either of these devices can be used to drastically alter most every effect you do. They are places/mechanisms to invisibly store or hide objects. The Topit and Hold-out also take an extraordinary amount of practice to master. Of course, really good magic takes that amount in all cases, but I digress . . . I have found the Hold-out to be more useful, to me than a Topit. I happen to use both, but find myself relying more and more on the Hold-out. What you vanish with it is available with a well timed and synchronized motion, to be delivered into your hand, whenever you desire.

If you don't think it's worth the money, don't buy it. Not all secrets in magic have been available for everyone's perusual. Mssrs. Fitch and Kohler don't need to advertise or make any money at all from the Hold-Out. They both have tremendously lucrative careers. Quit debating the validity of their marketing scheme. They don't have one. The darned thing is a result of the two of them jamming on the idea and then making it the very best they could. How many props or utility devices in magic can you say that for???

Kohler is one of the best freaking magicians out there, period. If you ever get the chance to see him perform, in any venue, run, don't walk, to see him. He will fool and entertain you. He thinks things through completely. Go to Bob's website and buy Aces in Their Faces. I think he wants twenty bucks for it. It will give you an inkling of how sharp this guy is. His routines are published in his own works and by well-informed folks, like John Bannon.
Bob will kill you with the Hold-out.

Bob Fitch, who I've only seen on his Topit DVDs and the Hold-Out DVDs is a national treasure. He's got more time on the Broadway stage than most magicians could even conceive of. I learned more from the DVDs mentioned above, about how to incorporate my entire body into motions than I dreamed existed. For that prodigious sum they charge you don't just get some bubble gum and string, you are exchanging value for these two gentlemen's collective knowledge!

The DVDs are invaluable. Get Fitch's DVDs on the Topit. Pay attention to what he teaches. If you, like me, think they're the best value for the money in magic, then consider dropping a few bucks on the hold-out.

This is my first posting here. I am not economically connected to Bob Kohler or Mr. Fitch in any way. Heck, I don't know one of them at all and Kohler couldn't pick me out of a line-up. The hold is worth the asking price, to me.

Kent F. Gunn
RC California

I mentioned Chris Angel's use of the holdout in his first special...Again he used it in his blowing up the box segment. If you've recorded his shows, I'm sure you'll figure out which effect this was used for.

Bob Fitch

You are spot on Walter Z with the comments. Oh I have seen it in action on the LVMI tapes and I reckon I can do pretty much excat routine with antonio romeros perfect holdout. by the by I would still prefer to watch shoot ogawa and many others than Bob Fitch doing the holdout piece. Entertainment!!!!!!!

Ouch! I spent hours with Bob in Tannen's and down in the Howard Johnson's below Tannen's magic shop. I would not consider that time mispent. As to methods... they are just methods.

Looks like Criss might have used it in his Halloween special too.

Jonathan that's right the method is not that important if the effect works. So here is a question for the bobs. What effect can your holdout do which I couldn't do with another holdout.

I know there are folks that want the Ferrari of holdouts or whatever proline of material comes out


That's their free choice and good for them if they want to invest or spend so much money. I know from experience it doesn't make you instantly the best or even good


These days magicians appear to be getting as good at using their 'guile' to market to each other as they are at doing shows for real people


So many can be persuaded that they will be better at something if they clip on a gimmick. The secret 99% of the time has to be that practice and experience needs to come first


Personally I love being able to do my effects without relying on extreme expense, using stuff that can be easily replaced



I saw Me Fitch perform using the holdout at Blackpool a while back. His holdout was doing all the stuff that mine does.& maybe not as well IMO



He was working the horseshoe arena at the time. The working environment was noisy, the crowd big. the conditions poor and people got fed up with what appeared to be an endless impromptu routine of coins appearing and disappearing without any apparent motivation other than a story patterline that could barely be heard above the din



If the holdout is so good why are they advertising it on the internet and engaging in conversation in forums like this, making the whole world aware of such an excellent magicians device. Is this magic or marketing?



Why are you guys complaining about exposure on Wikipedia?



When things get as complex as this


I think I prefer 'free knowledge' to marketing



I know someone who has threatened to write an expose on the holdout on the Wiki for a laugh. I had to get real mad to get them to promise not to



I reckon theres a hornets nest being stirred up here



and again the 'short term' entrepeneur will win and the magician will lose out

Here here I saw Bob Fitch doing his thing with the holdout at blackpool and well I didn't see it all as it was boring me silly so I went for a smoke. Now there's a question, what is better value for money, the holdout or a pack of cigarettes