What? Criss Angel was the biggest celebrity in the world at the time. He continues to have the greatest and most successful live show of all time.

I know this is true because he said so.

To the topic though, there's a massive blast of information everywhere. To a person looking at it, they would have to assume the information is available and going through mentor stuff is unnecessary.

Additionally, with less in person interaction in general the odds of knowing someone to mentor you is fairly unlikely. Most folks don't go to those club things anymore. The ones who do tend to be older and not the professional folks.

Those conventions are for selling things now.

It would seem folks do figure it out though. There seems to be no shortage of live magicians working today. Some are pretty good.

I don't know, there are many who can study good singer but that will not make them a good singer. We both know there is much more to it than that. Talent only being one element. Also, I know many great singers that are home never working or doing anything with their talent because they know nothing about the entertainment business behind the talent, which is where success is created.

As far as "how to choose a good mentor, coach, or both" Tom offered his opinion. While that may be how Tom would do it, most I have worked with for four decades do not do it this way. This is also why Tom might be a lousy student/client. He thinks his "opinions" are true. This has been discussed thoroughly in the "Coaching" thread that while quote productive and helpful was threaded with much of Tom's opinions, objections, personal beliefs (not business/industry reality) and lack of understanding https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......forum=44

Most do NOT make it with books, videos and asking for help. Magicians are not the most helpful group of all, not by a landslide. Almost every other type of entertainer trumps magicians here. Magicians trump all others with the blind and uninformed leading the other blind and uninformed. Offering the rarely useful "how they did it" to others believing they will do well with it too. Also many magicians are delusional in what they consider their own success as compared to what others do. The whole magicians learning from other peers is where the spreading and accepting of misinformation or incorrect information often begins. Even the internet has more wrong and misinformation than actual correct and useful educational information.

As for "There seems to be no shortage of live magicians working today" I would strongly disagree. I think there are less professional working magicians today than ever before. There is far less working competition than ever before. The problem is there are more poor to absolutely terrible magicians today than ever before due to the problems and issues I identified above, the use of Youtube and video watching interpreted as learning and education, and this sharing of misinformation and opinion as being accepted as fact.

Okay folks, just for fun...

This morning we were waiting in line for our favorite Sunday brunch place to open, so I decided to do an online search. Ten minutes later, I had found how much FREE information the Small Business Administration has on how to start a small business. Lots of articles and material on lots of specific topics. They also have SCORE, the Service Core of Retired Executives, who offer FREE one-on-one consulting on opening a small business. Some of these guys are good and some not, but they are a resource.

During the same ten minutes, I found several resources on how to promote a small business nowadays, mostly through social media. And I also found links to magic organizations, i.e., IBM, SAM, and others, who have lots of information if you just bother to read the articles, attend the conventions, and learn from others.

There were a few links to Youtube, but I chose to ignore them. Ten minutes was all it took. And granted, I knew where to look for this material.

The issue, as I see it (and I can relate to this from my own experience) is that most people who want to do magic for money want to do magic -- they don't want to run a business. It's well known in the entertainment industry that most creatives are horrible at business, which is why they have agents and business managers.

Yes, there's a lot of crap out there, and it's getting harder to tell difference due to lack of thinking.

I agree wholeheartedly with the posts from MindPro and George. (That might itself be a minor miracle.)

What I don't think I'm adequately conveying is that I can't look at magic as *just* a business, and I think you are helping to clarify the conversation.

No matter how good you are at the business side of entertainment, it won't make you a better singer or entertainer. If you are a great entertainer, but choose the wrong material, you will have limited success. Even if you are a great singer and entertainer, and put together a great act, but you try to book into the wrong venues... well, you can see where this is going.

This why definitions are so important, and why we have to differentiate between different uses of the same terms. Too often in a thread, and sometimes even in the same post, we equivocate between different senses of the same word.

I call myself a "working amateur." That, for me, defines what I do, but I don't know if it conveys the same meaning to anyone else. (Of course, I'm more than a performer: I'm a hobbyist, collector, scholar, and creator as well.) As I get to know more magicians since my return to magic, I've realized that I perform more often and make more money through magic than many who call themselves "professionals."

Tom and Fedora, I'm not saying that it is impossible to become a magician (in the sense I'm trying to convey) on your own. What I'm saying (and I believe it is consistent with George and MindPro) is that there are a lot more opportunities to do it wrong than right, and no way to tell the difference without guidance. I suspect that if you believe that what is available is sufficient, that it may be because we are using the term "magician" in different ways. That, in itself, is not a problem; that's how language works. But if we are going to have an informed discussion, we need to know what definition we are using in context.

Wow. I go in to write a couple of paragraphs, and end up with an essay!

There is probably more ‘magicians’ today than any time in history. And yes, many are working and making good money, and you most likely have never heard their name. They did it on their own from books, talking to others, etc. Some are really good, some are really bad in the eyes of some, but they’re still working and will keep working regardless of what we think.

My take on the term "magician" is this:

In the world of magic, I embrace every individual who identifies as a magician, whether they’re a professional, full-time performer, part-time enthusiast, or hobbyist. If someone declares they’re a magician and knows what a TT (thumb tip) is, that’s enough for me to call them a magician. I don’t rank or compare them, pointing out who’s better or worse. To me, they’re all magicians, each contributing to the art in their own way. (Oh sure a few top names in places like Vegas is fair game for the bad mouthing, but outside that, it should be a no-no)

I say that and this perspective stems from my time helping others build their businesses. My first piece of advice was always clear: if you want my guidance, you must promise never to speak ill of your competition. As far as I know, those I mentored honored that commitment. There’s an old saying I hold dear: “What you say about others says more about you than it does about them.” I know that’s an ole saying, but is the simple truth, and it’s also the foundation of reaching the top in any profession, including magic.

Speaking negatively about others—whether fellow magicians, competitors, or anyone else—erodes trust. Customers, prospects, and the broader community notice, and once trust is broken, it’s nearly impossible to rebuild. In small, tight-knit industries like magic, this is especially true. Some believe that criticizing half the community will win over the other half, a tactic that might work in fleeting, high-profile circles like Hollywood. But in a close-knit field like ours, disparaging others alienates potential supporters and shrinks your opportunities. Bad mouthing others just to build yourself up can be seen through like a super thin silk. Notice you don't see the top names in magic on here telling us little people how bad we suck; they do it for a good reason.

Instead, I say focus on building others up. Celebrate the diversity of talent in the magic community, from the seasoned stage performer to the amateur practicing in their living room. Encourage collaboration over competition. Share knowledge, support new magicians, and foster a positive environment. This approach not only strengthens your reputation but also elevates the entire art form. Trust and respect are the currency of success in magic—guard them fiercely, and you’ll find your place among the greats.

Amen,

Tom

Thanks, Tom. Would you say the same about, for example, teachers? It's okay for them to teach, as long as they call themselves teachers? If their students end up illiterate or as racists, that's okay -- they are all teachers.

One of the primary purposes of this thread was to make clear that making these types of distinctions is not negativity. A word that means everything ultimately means nothing. And just because you might choose to misuse a term with someone you don't want to offend, doesn't mean we can't (or shouldn't) use it properly within the industry. And if someone says "I'm not part of the industry," then voila! -- that's exactly the distinction we are trying to make. I may be an amateur, but I consider myself part of the industry.

I don't know why it's relevant that you don't speak ill of your competition or bad-mouth others to build yourself up. No one on here is advocating (or doing) that. But I will say that every time someone gives advice, there is a negative subtext. Saying "do this" implies they are doing something wrong or not doing something they should. You can frame it in a positive way, but ultimately you are saying "you can do better." If you think saying that is negative, then stop giving advice. If you think it is helpful, then you agree with me, since that's what I've been saying all along.

And I can't believe your callousness in ostracizing those magicians who don't know what a thumb tip is.

It’s not close to a comparison to teachers.
Of course, WE all can do better.
And there is nothing negative about encouragement.

Tom

As a sidebar, and probably to rattle some cages, my definition of a magician is someone who performs magic in a polished, entertaining manner to create the illusion of doing something impossible. The term "fooling" doesn't come into it, and neither do "wonder," "astonishment," or any of those other pat-yourself-on-the-back words. That definition is based on high respect for those who have put a ton of work into perfecting their art whether they do it for a living or not. Someone who's mostly into doing tricks to "fool the folks," to me, is not a magician.

I'm not saying that "should" be the definition: I'm just saying it's mine.

I've been hanging around the Cafe for just over twenty years. I write a column here. I published a book several years ago. I've been a member of IBM for over sixty years. I designed and built four runs of limited-edition high-end props for Stevens Magic, which sold out quickly. But I don't fit my definition above -- haven't fit it for fifty-odd years -- so I don't call myself a magician.

That simply isn't true. Your opinion is not fact. Once again here is another example. We have seen it here over and over again - Benji, Mike (who is now in prison for murder but give him such helpful encouragement when the stated facts on here by himself showed otherwise), Bazinga, and so many others. You've given them "encouragement" when facts, knowledge, and experience have shown and proven otherwise. The list goes on and on.

When I recently reviewed all of the threads since the beginning of Tricky Business I saw it over and over again and kept feeling you should be ashamed of yourself, especially since again you are not an entertainer or an entertainment business owner/operator (and if you ever were it was decades ago.)

What you are doing and always do is offer what amounts to as false encouragement under false pretense of "being helpful." As we've seen here many times it often leads to problems, setbacks, unrealistic expectations, loss of money/income, failure, and worse...yet you continue to do so.

Great points George much I too agree with. It's very obvious when someone operates from an industry perspective rather than an amateur or me-based perspective.

George,

I believe we each hold our own unique definition of what it means to be a magician, and there is nothing wrong with that. When I refer to everyone here as a magician, it’s a gesture of respect for their passion and involvement in the art, whether they’re performers, collectors, or beginners. After all this is the Magic Cafe where Magicians come to hang out. If someone prefers to identify as a collector, a novice, or something else, I’m happy to honor that with no issue at all.

That said, I too hold a special admiration for working professionals who have dedicated their craft to a high level of skill and artistry. This respect, however, is not automatic—it’s earned through their work and the mutual respect they show others, including myself. I believe professionalism only shines when talent is paired with humility and kindness to the fans.

Tom

Reminds me of something my dad said when I was on the football team... 'Listen to the coach, not the cheerleaders.'

Ha, perfect!

Sorry Wravyn, but I have to ask

The cheerleaders and fans in the stands cheering you on, showing their appreciation, had no effect on your performance? I bet it had much more than you think. It's easy to dismiss the roar of the crowd as mere background noise, but I think it is a FACT and know from experience, that the energy from cheerleaders and fans in the stands can significantly impact an athlete's performance.

Can a magician do just as good with nobody sitting in the audience. I think they need us nobodys more than they think.

Tom

The cheers did not teach the way to play. Those cheers did not teach the strategy of the game and what it takes to bring home the win. Those cheers were encouraging to hear, yet taught nothing of playing the game.

A good coach/mentor will be able to instruct and guide their apprentice to constructively look at things from a different perspective. The mentor must be willing to reprimand while also encouraging progress. When a mentor realizes that their apprentice is ready to graduate, then they will cheer them on. On the other hand, if a mentor just cheers and says good job, or the audience loves you, and you can do it, without correcting the wrong practices or recognizing those bad habits, the mentorship is selfish and one-sided, the mentor feels good about mentoring, believing they are helping while not doing anything constructive for the apprentice.

Well said Wravyn,

But let’s not confuse mentoring/coaching with comments on a forum. Very few on here is claiming to be teaching, this is a discussion forum, where a lot of brainstorming takes place. Readers can, and should be allowed, to decide what they can use and what they can’t.

Forums are where people share experiences, theories, partial solutions, and half-formed ideas not as definitive teachings, but as contributions to a collective thinking process. The value often emerges from the interplay between different perspectives rather than from any single authoritative voice. This brainstorming dynamic is actually quite powerful. Someone might share an approach that worked in their specific context, while acknowledging it might not translate elsewhere. Another person might build on that idea, modify it, or point out potential pitfalls. The resulting discussion can generate insights that no individual participant could have reached alone.

The key is maintaining what we might call "intellectual humility" - recognizing that most of us are sharing from our limited experience rather than comprehensive expertise. When someone presents their approach as the solution rather than a potential solution, they're essentially trying to convert a collaborative discussion into a one-way teaching moment, which changes the entire dynamic. Readers in these spaces do need to be active critical thinkers, weighing advice against their own context and judgment. But that's actually part of what makes forum discussions valuable - they develop people's ability to synthesize multiple viewpoints rather than just follow instructions.

Maybe it would be good to have a place where one participant could demand teaching-level authority from all contributors, But I don't think, This Is That Place.

Tom

Er, gentlemen, can we get back to the subject, please?

One of the problems I see with the apprentice system in magic is how the system works. Someone who wants to become, say, a plumber would find a program in plumbing. So, in magic, you would go to learn a specific type of magic, i.e., stage manipulation, close-up, comedy, illusions, or whatever.

A more generic program would involve a school that offers courses in different specialties, not an apprentice program, and that's a subject for a separate thread.

I just looked up the Chavez School of Magic, and, according to their web site, they focus on stage manipulation, which is what they started out with back in 1941. But they also get into presentation, stage presence, and the business end. It's not an apprentice program.

You right George, and I’m sorry for being part of the distraction on your topic.

Doesn’t Jeff McBribe have a camp for magicians?

I always enjoyed magic club meeting, and the conventions. Most ‘wanting’ to learn can learn from those. These are more like refresher classes for those already started.

But I keep thinking most magicians begin at an early age and started with the kidshows and worked up from there. And by this time, they will only have specific questions to break into a new market, etc. And all that is needed then is to seek out another magician that can answer that question. They have spent years learning and already have proven to themselves that they can do it, and just not interested in listening to someone that wants them to start all over.

But, and I mention this early, the real secret to moving up in magic, or ANY OTHER business venture is this: And like I have always said, it’s not rocket science, and it's guaranteed to work for everyone. It could certainly change things on here.

In my journey through various business ventures, one principle has consistently paved the way for progress and success. Mastering this one thing can open doors, eliminate unnecessary back-and-forth, and propel you toward your goals—whether in magic, entrepreneurship, or any other industry. The secret lies not just in what you ask, but how you ask it. Let me share a simple yet transformative approach to asking that can help you climb the ladder of success in magic or anything else you’re wanting to do.

The most effective question to cut through the noise and get straight to the answers you need is: “Who can I ask about ___?” or its equally powerful variant, “Who is the best person to ask about ___?”

These questions are game changers because they do two critical things: 1. They focus on connection, not just information. Instead of asking for the answer outright, you’re seeking the right person—someone with expertise, experience, or influence who can provide clarity or opportunity. 2. They save time and build relationships. By identifying the best source, you avoid endless trial-and-error or vague responses from the wrong people. Plus, you position yourself as someone who values expertise and respects others’ knowledge.

Let me repeat this secret and in a way, it is a secret because very few actually use it:

The most effective question to cut through the noise and get straight to the answers you need is:

“Who can I ask about ___?”

or its equally powerful variant,

“Who is the best person to ask about ___?”

And when you don't get your answer, it's simple, you keep asking.

Tom

Well, in all fairness, I think we've pretty much exhausted the original topic (the apprentice system), so how about if we just put this thread to rest and start another one?