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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3738 Posts 
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Sounds Good George. I'm out
Tom
“All you can do is all you can do, but all you can do is enough” --Art Williams
The Daycare Magician Book https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ eBay Store: https://www.ebay.com/str/bolewarebargains |
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smithart Special user Texas 857 Posts
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On Aug 4, 2025, George Ledo wrote: So, George, did you get any useful feedback from this thread? My takeaway is that there is a lot of confusion between apprenticeship, coaching, mentoring, training, and similar terms, and no real sense as to whether apprenticeship would be feasible or provide any additional benefit.
AKA Professor Memento
https://mementomysteries.com |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3380 Posts
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I don't know about confusion, but there are certainly lots of opinions.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "If I were to do an illusion show" |
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smithart Special user Texas 857 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 3, 2025, George Ledo wrote: George, my definition overlaps with yours. And since you made it clear that it's only a personal definition, I'm really just using it as a starting point for discussion, not critiquing it. Unless I say otherwise, I use the term "magician" for "performing magician." I usually call those who make some sort of magic-adjacent income "magic professionals." You would definitely fit into that category. When I use the term "professional" as a noun, it is in an economic sense by default. In many other cases, I'm describing the standards to which professionals (in the first sense) aspire, whether it is amateurs who hold themselves to professional standards or whether professionals live up to those expectations (which are not entirely arbitrary). As a rhetorician I'm always on the lookout for what is not said. When we say, "a magician is someone who performs magic," then we are pulling in an assumed, unspoken definition of "magic." I think you know that I don't like the term "fooling": in fact, that is an explicit part of Professor Memento's presentation. But magic (or illusion) does include deception by any normal definition. And that "illusion of doing something impossible" also seems to be a necessary part of any reasonable definition. (Just as you can't avoid seeing things through your theatrical lens, I can't avoid seeing through my linguistic training. One of the primary purposes of definitions is to disambiguate distinct concepts, and terms, to allow us to communicate more precisely. We identify where those concepts overlap and where they differ.) As we like to say in philosophy, the definition "impossible" is "necessary" but not "sufficient." As an opinion, I can't say it's wrong, and as I said, I agree with it. (And the fact that the definition may be incomplete probably doesn't matter to you.) So, for me, I agree that "Someone who's mostly into doing tricks to "fool the folks," to me, is not a magician," because I would not define what they are doing as "magic." I believe that terms like "wonder" and "astonishment" are an attempt to explain in what unique ways "magic" fulfills your criteria that it must be "entertaining." They can be helpful as examples, but they are not the only ways that magic can entertain. In fact, magic can entertain as puzzles. I also have to treat "entertainment" as aspirational: bad actors are still actors, and bad magicians can still be magicians. (The term "polished" seemed out of place based on some things you've said in the past, but I suspect you have something in mind that I missed.) I posted some excerpts from 'Our Magic." It's just one example of the books I've read on magic theory. In all cases, they are focused on magic as Art, and magicians as artists. Here in trickly business, we are mostly focused on magicians as what Maskelyne calls "tradesmen." As I've said, I can't completely separate the business of magic from the art of magic. To have a trade, you have to have a product, and our product is our performance. But to be a professional you have to be a tradesman. And almost everyone who does something they love as an occupation ends up with the occupation increasingly crowding out the love (as you've mentioned before). It's likely the reason that about half of the innovation in magic has come from amateurs. It may be that there is not a single "magic" we can define, but instead we would be better served to say "magic as ____." Of course, all of those "magics" have to have at least some things in common or the term magic becomes meaningless. I know that to some degree this post is self-indulgent: it provides me with an opportunity to clarify my own thinking. But I hope it is also helpful for someone other than me.
AKA Professor Memento
https://mementomysteries.com |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3380 Posts
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On Aug 5, 2025, smithart wrote: LOL. My theatrical lens. Yes, I admit to being guilty to that. No argument there. But let's not forget that theatre -- professional live theatre -- is a business, an industry, in this country. Contrary to what many many people I've met over the years -- including many high-school drama teachers -- assume, professional live theater is not funded by "patrons of the arts." Broadway, off-Broadway, off-off-Broadway, and similar productions all over the country are funded by investors: people who put down their money to finance the shows and expect to get it back and then some. The publishing houses that license the scripts are big business and take it very seriously. The designers, carpenters, electricians, painters, wardrobe people and other crew are members of a trade union that takes it very seriously. So are the actors, and, in the case of musicals, the musicians. So I look at things through my theatrical lens, but there are two of them: the performance lens and the business lens. So yes, a lot of my comments are filtered through those two lenses. Sorry if that sounds like a rant, but this whole idea of people in this country not understanding that live theatre is not always "the school play" has been a thorn in my side for many years, especially when I've had to explain what I do in fifth-grade language. And that has a lot to do with how I feel about "doers of tricks" versus "magicians."
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "If I were to do an illusion show" |
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smithart Special user Texas 857 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 4, 2025, George Ledo wrote: Yes, that was the context I was assuming when I used the shorthand "theatrical lens," not as a limitation, but as a celebration of what each of us brings to the table. It's one of the reasons we should be able to learn from each other, if we only listen. Quote:
Sorry if that sounds like a rant, but this whole idea of people in this country not understanding that live theatre is not always "the school play" has been a thorn in my side for many years, especially when I've had to explain what I do in fifth-grade language. And that has a lot to do with how I feel about "doers of tricks" versus "magicians." It's surprising that so many people still fall into the Dire Straits "Money for Nothing" mentality when it comes to professionals, but I see it too. Try to explain what an editor or producer does. I'm surprised at how many employees don't believe that managers do any real work for their money. But what did you think of my feedback? Does it clarify or confuse your definition?
AKA Professor Memento
https://mementomysteries.com |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 11092 Posts
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George, I feel the same thing could happen with changing the path into magic or the apprentice or entry system but it would need the support and enforcement of the magic community. As the internet and technology has progressed the magic community has just sat by and watched. They were not part of this progression and did nothing to adapt to it as so many other businesses, industries, and associations have.
If magic secrets, traditions, and procedures have changed or become disrespected it is because the magic community has just sat by and allowed it. It is sad, very sad and it didn't have to be this way. Education must be part of the process as should shared knowledge. There needs to be a right way. It must be supported by the entire community. As Tom so frequently says "there is no right or specific way" as anyone can just do whatever they want. This needs to change for this to work. And the Magic Cafe as the world's largest magic community should be the leader and a great starting place. |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3380 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 5, 2025, Mindpro wrote: Man, did you open Pandora's Box with that comment. It started me on another rant, but, since it won't make any difference, I decided to just close the box. Dariel Fitzkee said the same thing in S for M in 1943 and not much has changed since then. Tricks, props, illusions, patter, most of it still belonging to a long-gone era, but people are still buying it and using it. The last time I saw illusions get re-designed from the 1930s Thayer era was in the 1980s when the "high tech" style came in. Are people supposed to take this stuff seriously????? Some time back I wrote a post here about any possible interest in a book on how to upgrade the look of standard props and illusions to make them more contemporary, and there was zero interest. IMHO, this thread has outlived its usefulness, so I'm signing off.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "If I were to do an illusion show" |
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smithart Special user Texas 857 Posts
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MindPro, let's be clear. What you are calling the "industry perspective" is a consensus opinion. Consensus opinions are important, even necessary, especially in magic, where there are no formal standards. It is through consensus opinions, for example, that we define magic ethics.
But they are still opinions. And your perspective is only one view based on your personal experience. Your opinion may be more informed than others, which gives it more weight, but it is still an opinion. If you believe that you are only stating facts, then you are only fooling yourself. I know that's blunt, but I ask you to consider it, not just react.
AKA Professor Memento
https://mementomysteries.com |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 11092 Posts
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I guess you can call it what you want but it IS the way the professional industry works and operates on a daily basis and has for generations. I didn't create this or make this up, it was there long before me or any of us. You can think it is opinion, but it is the way it operates consistently for well over a hundred years. Yes, I call that a fact.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 11092 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 5, 2025, George Ledo wrote: Thanks George. I would have loved to hear rant as I think it would probably reflect the industry take I've been detailing. I had a coaching, mentoring client that felt the exact same way about magic props so he decided to try to get some custom props made. Some were modern visual updates to longtime standard props (not red with gold/yellow Chinese dragons) and some completely new, specific only to him new ideas and concepts he wanted to bring to life. I remember him contacting sever established and well-known prop builders and all of them seemed to only think along these same old outdated lines. None of them were interested in creating something new and exciting. He had to end up settling for one of these guys and was quite disappointed. Thinking, perceptions, and acceptance have not changed, progressed and evolved at all. It is all a perception and mindset where it begins. It's stunned growth. Sorry to not hear what you were thinking based on your professional knowledge and experience. |
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Futureal Inner circle 1673 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 4, 2025, TomBoleware wrote: |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22779 Posts
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If this was all boiled down to gravy, there wouldn’t be enough to cover a chicken fried steak.
Has anyone here pontificating ever benefited from a true mentor? One you didn’t pay? I guess that is rhetorical. I have never paid for a magic lesson or hypnosis lesson. Not once. I was mentored 100% from the time I was 19. People like Charlie Schulien, Jay Marshall, Jim Ryan,Heba Haba, Ernie Spence and on and on. I am of the belief that when the student is ready the teacher will appear. My first thought is most are not ready because they already know all they need to from the internet. It is the way art should be done in my opinion. In magic this is less and less true. I don’t know if it is right or wrong. I don’t know if it is better or worse. I have beliefs, but can’t quantify them with absolute proof. I only know my experiences. I would think anyone would want to do things that way. Not many do. I will say that what you learn from YouTube and other similar sources is not what I was taught by mentors. The mechanics of what we do is the equivalent of learning a Dove Tail Joint in carpentry. It is what you do the hold the drawer together. It is not what makes the drawer beautiful of what it is sitting in art. It simply isn’t. So there ya go. Just an opinion from a guy who was 100% mentored.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3380 Posts
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I had several mentors when I was a high-strung teenager in IBM Ring 38 in San Francisco umpteen years ago. Some were very-old-school and some were newer-school, but I learned something from all of them. This was long before personal computers, so YouTube wasn't an option. We had the clubs, the mags, the library, and the conventions, with the occasional magician on Ed Sullivan or The Hollywood Palace.
Some of our members performed regularly (or even full-time) for the general public, while others mostly performed for the magic clubs, buying or talking about the new stuff all the time. And guess which group was the more opinionated and clique-ish.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "If I were to do an illusion show" |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22779 Posts
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Quote:
On Dec 1, 2025, George Ledo wrote: Easy, but I won't answer.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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thehackleguy Regular user 118 Posts
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I didn't read this entire post..... but I will say, two years ago I approached a local well know magician and said "I need you to mentor me". It took a few months for us to connect, but since I have gone to shows with him, learned his system for kids and family shows, and he has brutally critiqued my performances. I would not be where I am today without him. He has been so honest and forgiving for my ignorance, I can't even begin to tell you how much this has meant to me. It's not the same as reading a post and trying to incorporate it into a workable show. I've grown tremendously from our relationship and I'm soooooo thankful I was smart enough to say "Hey I need you as a mentor"
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22779 Posts
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That is a great experience. I bet there are 1,000 little things that go into that type of entertainment and for him to share is incredible.
You being humble enough to ask and learn is the key! It all starts with your own humility. Not only were you smart enough, you were humble enough. Very cool.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3380 Posts
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And that takes us back to the "fact" that some people want to perform magic and others want to do tricks. Conceptually, I have no problem with that, except for one little itsy-bitsy thorn in my side for over forty years.
In this country, the vast majority of community theatre is run by hobbyists who have no interest in doing it professionally, whether it be acting, directing, or any of the technical areas. They like to sit on play-selection committees or boards, run auditions, rehearse, and go to the theatre on Saturdays to build or paint scenery, socialize, and drink coffee. And then of course go to the show and pat themselves on the back. Again, no conceptual problem with that. The vast majority of high-school theatre works the same way. For the vast majority of people who work on or go to these shows, that's what live theatre is. They have no conception of professional live theatre being different, and in many cases it's because they don't attend professional live theatre. So, consciously or unconsciously, on purpose or by accident, they are reinforcing the idea that all live theatre is the same. I've said before that I've had numerous people find it hard to understand that I designed sets for a living, that I didn't build scenery evenings and weekends and Saturdays while holding down a day job, that I worked on two or three shows at the same time, that my work hours were generally M-F, 9 to 5, and that I didn't teach in a high school. It became so predictable it was hilarious. That's how I feel about magical hobbyists and doers-of-tricks in general. In many cases they are reinforcing the idea (to the general public) that all magic is that way and not taking it seriously as a legitimate form of professional entertainment. End of rant.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "If I were to do an illusion show" |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22779 Posts
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George you are so right. The reality is once you get beyond all the excuses and who knows as much as who, it is two different things. Then when someone points that out somehow it is an ego issue. It is attacking someone. Ugh.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3380 Posts
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Not to go on and on, but some of the perceptions I've seen about magic are interesting. For instance, and I'm not making this up:
"What do you do?" "I'm a magician." "Oh, you do kid parties?" "Actually no, I work for adults." "Oh, so your show has blue material?" Or... "What do you do?" "I'm a magician." "Oh, that's nice. But what do you do for a living?" "I do magic shows." "Really? You don't have a day job?"
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "If I were to do an illusion show" |
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Posted: Aug 4, 2025 10:20 pm 
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