Exactly! I couldn't have said it better! As the owner of several entertainment agencies we hear this type of thing all day, multiple times a week. It is how the lay public thinks of and sees magic/magicians. It is just amazing to me that the magic community, IBM, SAM, etc. hasn't even attempted to try to change such perceptions. Because of the internet and Youtube, I think it has actually gotten worse.

This is exactly how people think of and see magic. Spot on George.

"It is just amazing to me that the magic community, IBM, SAM, etc. hasn't even attempted to try to change such perceptions."

what's a good way for them to start?

Oh George, it ain’t that bad.

No, you’re right, some don’t understand it, and I think that’s partly because most people have never seen a live magic show, other than the local birthday party magician. And we probably don’t look like that guy on TV so we must be one of the local guys.

But I’m not sure the perception could ever be changed. It is what it is. Because for many people, the core perception of magic is simple: “You tricked me.” Even when the performance is charming, funny, or dazzling, the underlying feeling for some is still, “You fooled me,” and not everyone enjoys that no matter how much we, as magicians, believe the entertainment value should outweigh the deception. That’s the paradox at the heart of the art. Magic requires a moment of being deceived. The astonishment, the surprise, the impossible becoming possible, these only exist because something happened that the audience can’t explain. You can polish it, frame it, soften it, or wrap it in storytelling, but you can never completely remove the “trick” from magic. If you do, then what remains isn’t magic anymore; it’s a puzzle, a demonstration, or a skill display but not that special spark that makes people lean forward and whisper, “How did they do that?”

Nope, magic is not for everybody. The audience for it is much smaller than one might think.

I’ve always liked comparing magic to baseball because there are so many different levels to it. Both magic and baseball exist on a spectrum that ranges from casual hobbyists to world-class professionals. In baseball, you might play catch in your backyard, join a recreational league, compete in high school or college, work your way through minor leagues, and eventually if you're exceptionally talented reach the majors. Each level represents a jump in skill, commitment, and recognition. Magic works the same way. Plenty of people learn card tricks from a book or YouTube video. Some perform at birthday parties on weekends. Others work their way up through local gigs, cruise ships, corporate events, and regional theaters. Then there's the professionals who headline Las Vegas shows, tour internationally, or create television specials.

The word "professional" can help transform the conversation. When you say "I play baseball," people might picture weekend games at the park. But "I'm a professional baseball player" immediately shifts their mental image to someone who's made it. someone whose skill level has been validated by the market, by scouts, by competition. The same transformation happens with magic. "I do magic tricks" sounds like a hobby. "I'm a professional magician" signals that you've crossed a threshold: you're skilled enough that people pay you, you've developed an act that works consistently, and you've committed to this as your livelihood.

Then too, it’s always hard for a local person to be anyone other than just a local person. If you the guy down the street it’s best to just laugh with them and say, “yea I can’t believe they pay me so much money to do what I do.”


Tom

You have to ask yourself what causes that perception of magic? When you answer that, as uncomfortable as the answer is, you arrive at the problem.

The big difference in baseball and magic is that the backyard catch players don't go around saying "I am a professional baseball player". They don't have delusions of adequacy. So many want to claim to be magicians and want to be thought of as something they are not.

The problem is in the mirror. Not wanting to believe just because you know how things are done that you know enough about my craft to even have an opinion. The entire baseball hierarchy of baseball knows what place they occupy in that. In magic this is not the case. We pretend "magicians helping magicians" means that you have to stroke people's egos and have to pretend they are on the same level no matter what. That is the eternal problem with magic. People who have never done shows professionally, or haven't in decades want to pretend that they know as much or are as accomplished who have done it for 35 years for money. That little delusion contributes to the perception of magic more than anything.

People's perception of magic is created by magicians. PERIOD. "You tricked me" is what many put out there. It is really simple. It is just that there are just so few professional magicians vs hobbyists it will never change because the few get shouted down.

Ok I looked in the mirror, read my mind, and this is the thoughts that I saw. And since I’m a big supporter of the magic clubs and part-timers I will share those thoughts here:

The professional magician should not just tolerate, but actively celebrate the fact that kids are tearing open magic kits on birthdays and part-timers are performing tricks at parties and local events. That the local magic club is performing for the senior citizens home. Every time someone shares a moment of wonder, regardless of their technical skill or years of practice, they're keeping the art form alive and relevant. They're planting seeds of curiosity in minds that might otherwise never think about magic. They're reminding a screen-saturated world that a little astonishment and mystery still have a place in our lives.

<b>This isn't competition. It's free advertising on a scale no marketing budget could ever buy.</b>

Consider what happens every time a child proudly performs that simple card trick for their family, or when a hobbyist demonstrates a clever coin vanish to coworkers during lunch. They're doing the groundwork that professionals benefit from immensely. They're normalizing the idea that magic is worth watching, worth paying attention to, worth experiencing. They're warming up the audience, creating a culture of appreciation, long before any professional ever takes the stage.

In straightforward business terms, the principle is simple: the more people who are familiar with your product or service, the more interest and demand you create. Magic operates by the same economic reality. The broader the cultural awareness and appreciation of magic, the stronger the market becomes for everyone involved. Those beginners and part-timers aren't diluting your value, they're building your future clients, your future fans, and sometimes even your future colleagues.

The amateur performing at a retirement home or the teenager showing tricks at school is teaching people to value magic. They're demonstrating that magic creates joy, connection, and memorable moments. When those audience members eventually encounter a professional magician, whether at a corporate event, a theater show, or a private booking, they don't arrive skeptical or indifferent. They arrive primed, curious, and ready to be amazed at a higher level. The amateur has already done the work of showing them that magic matters.

A rising tide lifts all boats, as the saying goes, and this is especially true in magic. The art form thrives on cultural presence and public enthusiasm. When magic is everywhere, in homes, schools, community centers, and casual gatherings, it creates an ecosystem where professional magicians can flourish. The professional who can't see this dynamic is either remarkably shortsighted or quietly jealous.

And here's another uncomfortable truth for some here: only a professional whose skills barely exceed that of a beginner would genuinely feel threatened by amateurs doing what they do. The truly skilled magician understands that their value lies not just in the mechanics of a trick, but in presentation, timing, charisma, experience, and the ability to create an unforgettable experience. They know the space between a part-timers card trick and a polished professional act is vast, and that space is exactly what justifies their fee and their reputation.

When someone witnesses amateur magic and thinks, "That was fun, imagine what a real magician could do," that's not a problem. That's the beginning of demand. That's how cultural appreciation is built. The professional magician's job isn't to guard the gates or resent those outside them. It's to stand as proof of what mastery looks like, to show what's possible when someone dedicates themselves fully to the craft.

So rather than viewing beginners and hobbyists with suspicion or disdain, the professional should see them as allies in a shared mission: keeping wonder alive in the world. Every trick performed, no matter how simple, is a small act of resistance against cynicism. Every moment of astonishment is a reminder that the world still holds surprises. And every person who experiences that feeling becomes a potential advocate for magic, and by extension, for the professionals who have devoted their lives to perfecting it.

No the smart real ‘professional’ doesn't just tolerate this reality. They embrace it, encourage it, and recognize it for what it truly is: the foundation upon which their entire career is built.

Tom

Or the many are assumed to be the reality.

I just went back and scanned all four pages of this thread and realized once again that the apprentice system can work, but only for those who want to go there. There is nothing to be done about the hobbyists who are perfectly happy being hobbyists, or the doers-of-tricks who are perfectly happy doing tricks. If they don't have any interest in going beyond that, that's fine. It's their own business.

But let's do a sidebar for a moment. Over the past few years, and seemingly more and more, I see tricks (i.e., props) advertised as "fooling magicians," and it makes me want to throw up.

First, who cares? Unless, of course, you like to show the latest and greatest at the local magic club. And that's fine and fun for some.

But second, who are these magicians that the trick fools? Oh, right, these ads apparently lump all magicians into the same bucket. All of them, all the way from Uncle Joe to D. Copperfield.

So are the ads -- the ads -- reinforcing the idea that all who do magic fit the same category? I say they are. But then again, magic shops are in business -- business -- to sell what people buy. And today, with more and more online shops, the competition is pretty strong.

So would the apprentice system work here? Sure, but only for those who want to use it. And there's nothing to be done about those who don't.

[Edit] Tom, I just read your post above, which you were probably writing while I doing mine. And I disagree with your first couple of paragraphs, which imply that these kids and others are performing magic and creating wonder. In many, and I would say most, cases, they are just doing the tricks per the instructions and "fooling" their audiences. Because the magic kits do not tell you how to entertain, they only tell you how to do the trick. That's how I started, and I believe that most of us did too. That is not helping magic; in many cases it could be reinforcing the idea that that's how all magic is.

And watching Little Tommy vanish a coin or find my card, and asking if he fooled me, would not make me, or probably anyone else, get all excited to pay a hundred or more to see a professional act.

But then again, we are all entitled to our own opinions.

George, the way I see it is the kids are ‘trying’ to create wonder. The onlookers does not expect a polished act like they see on TV. They understand the difference. The ‘local’ magician is rarely seen being as good as the one on TV or the one being paid to perform in a casino. I think they clearly know the difference. Or that’s the way I see it.

But I do agree, that the ‘being more professional’ side of magic should be stressed more among the beginners.

Tom

Tom, the problem I see with this is that the vast majority of people do not see professional magicians on TV. There are very few opportunities for that aside from Fool Us and AGT. And how many people even see magicians in casinos? I don't believe for a second that most people in this country are interested enough in magic to go watch professional magicians. Not that there are that many casinos for them to perform in.

Now, if you were talking about singing, or telling jokes, or even acting, then I would agree with you. The general public knows about top singers, bands, comedians, and actors even if they don't follow them. So when Little Sally gets up and does a Taylor Swift song, they don't expect her to sing like Taylor, but they know who Taylor is. And they most likely think it's charming and admire her for aiming so high.

My personal opinion of your opinion is that you seem to believe that all those who do magic tricks are trying to perform magic, to create wonder, to do something magical for entertainment purposes. My perception is different because what I've seen for years is that most of these people want to "fool them." And as I've said several times, that's how I started and probably how most of us did.

And to get back to mentorship like Danny asked, all the mentors in the world aren't going to help Uncle Bob if he doesn't want their help.

George,

But doesn’t magic “fool” people? And if it doesn’t, is it really magic?

At its core, magic does hinge on deception and there’s no way around that. If you remove the element of “I don’t know how that happened,” you’ve removed the very heartbeat of magic. The mystery is the magic.

But here’s where the real distinction lies: A professional magician doesn’t “fool” people in the harsh got-you, one-up, “I’m smarter than you” sense. A pro fool's people in a softer, more generous way through wonder, surprise, and storytelling. The goal isn’t to embarrass anyone; it’s to create a moment where the audience gets to step outside the normal rules of reality and enjoy being amazed. It’s the difference between tricking someone to make them feel small, and: astonishing someone to make them feel delighted.

People don’t mind being fooled when they feel like they’re in on the fun, when the magician is clearly on their side. That’s why the best magicians create an atmosphere where the audience feels safe to react: to laugh, gasp, question, enjoy. They’re not being outsmarted; they’re being entertained.

So yes, magic fools' people. But done professionally, it fools them in a way that lifts their spirits, not their defenses. YES, good mentoring should teach this. This should be a must. But unfortunately, oh there are some professionals with downright bad attitudes toward others, and the same attitudes are passed on to the students too. Attitudes are hard to hide, and audiences can read people more than we think. Yes, find a good mentor, but do it with caution.

Tom

George,

I agree that magic is a small market. Now to answer your question directly on how we can change the bad perception of magic. I’m really not sure, other than to teach it at an early beginner stage. And suggest mentoring as a good thing.

What’s your thoughts on finding/choosing a mentor?

Tom

Tom,

I agree with you up there that magic needs to "fool" people and that professionals do it in such a way as to entertain and not one-up the audience. But my whole point has been that in my long experience the vast majority of trick-doers don't do this: they follow the instructions, and, often with little rehearsal, just focus on the "fooling." Because they either don't know any better or because that's what they think magic is all about. There have been discussions here about "magicians" watching top professional acts with music, lights, scenery, choreography, talent, perfect timing, and so forth, and then only being interested in discussing the "how." I've even seen that at conventions. Yup, magicians' conventions.

My thoughts on finding a mentor? If I were looking for one, I could find lots of them right here in the Cafe. But unless I found one that specializes in what I would want to do, i.e., stage illusions and manipulation, I would select several different ones for specific things. And I would go to ones who perform professionally for the general public, not the "big names" that are only "big" among other "magicians."

George, Thank You for allowing me to think out loud here. And I will add this before I have to run.

“Show me a magic trick” is not the same as “Do a magic show.” I agree completely. A trick is a moment. A show is an experience. One is a puzzle; the other is a performance. So how do we instill that understanding in new magicians? Honestly, I’m not sure we can, at least not by lecturing them or telling them what they “should” value.

Because…most new magicians fall in love with tricks. It’s natural. Tricks give quick reactions, instant validation, and that addictive little shot of “Got ’em!” A full show takes discipline, structure, scripting, rehearsal, pacing, character, things you don’t appreciate until you’ve outgrown the thrills of a single moment.

You can teach mechanics, but you can’t force someone to care about art. You can’t make them value timing, misdirection, storytelling, or connection until they’ve performed enough to feel the difference for themselves. Maturity in magic isn’t taught; it’s earned.

What we can do is create an environment where they discover it on their own. Some will make the leap. Some won’t. And that’s okay. I personally think that Magic has room for casual tricksters and committed performers. While tricksters may not cause people to want to run see a show, it does cause them to appreciate a good magic performance when they see it. There’s more magic on tv and social media today than ever before, so it’s not like it’s hidden from most.

Maybe the magicians who do grow, who learn that a show is more than tricks, don’t learn it because someone told them. They learn it because they felt the difference in their bones. I guess that’s why it’s hard to “instill.” Maybe It’s not something you plant in them. It’s something they grow into.

Tom

The absolute last place I would look for a mentor would be here. SO MUCH puffery and nonsense from those who never have done anything exists. Yea some are qualified. (Not me mind you.)

A mentor generally does not look for an apprentice. It is generally the other way round. This is why it isn’t happening much any more. As a group younger people are turning far more to other forms of “mentorship” such as YouTube University. To be an apprentice is to admit you don’t already know everything. It requires one to set aside the ego and simply say “please teach me”. It requires one to put aside stupid phrases such as “I am entitled to my opinion”. It requires one to keep their mouth shut and their ears open. It requires you to not put so much emphasis on one’s own feelings and “how” they are talked too and to just absorb and learn. Being an apprentice is about learning, not running your mouth and telling people what you think you know. And that is just the basics. It requires you to maybe figure out what you think you are going to give back to the art yourself.

It is about OH SO MUCH MORE than learning how to do the tricks. It is about almost everything BUT that in many cases. Tom the problem with wanting to change these things is with people who think “fly little eagle fly” is good advice for someone with bad ideas. It is with those tho think “fly little eagle fly” is good advice for a bad idea. It is with those who think encouraging any idea at all is good. It is with those who think that all ideas are worthy of being encouraged. It is with those who are not actually active in the art and haven’t been ever on a serious level thinking they know as much as professionals. The fact is there are some VERY bad ideas out there. NOT ALL of them should be encouraged in the name of “helping”. It doesn’t help at all, as a matter of fact it contributes to the perception of magic as a whole by the laity. Fact is you can’t mentor someone or advise someone if you have never really been where the person wants to go.

It comes down to what do you want them to mentor you to become? If all you want is to be a part time performer at a local level doing kids shows or what not then finding a person who is doing exactly that is the move. Someone you are close to geographically isn’t a bad move. Choose successful people. Ever notice how nobody writes books on how to fail? Everyone can do that.

Show up with a positive attitude and a closed mouth with an open mind. Don’t worry about what you want and concentrate on what they are trying to impart to you. It is a choice made by the apprentice.

You don’t instill anything by encouraging every little dumb idea that people have regardless. That is what caused the problem in the first place.

And herein lies the problem here. Sure everyone is entitled to their own opinion...which should simply stay in their own head, and not necessarily be posted and forced in a business forum where people come to learn. Not to mention when it takes things off-topic or is derailing which makes it even less contributing.

Can we at least agree that the apprentice (call it mentoring) system would, and does, work in magic as long as the "prospective learner" wants to learn from a mentor and the mentor is willing to teach the "prospective learner?" That it takes both to make it happen? And that in the vast majority of cases nowadays there's very little interest in the part of "prospective learners?"

I think we've agreed on this,but just wanted to make sure.

And I think (?) we've also agreed that nothing can realistically be done about this. If someone is happy just buying packet tricks today and inflicting them on Aunt Susie and Little Johnny tomorrow, because they consider magic as just a part-time hobby and that's all it means to them, there's nothing to be done about it. But if they insist on thinking that that makes them a magician with a capital M... well... we can cuss them out.

Trying to help them if they don't want help? Back in college I took a horseback riding class to deal with the PE requirement (also took golf and fencing, but that's another story). So they assigned me this huge black horse, Flint. We got along fine, and after every ride we were supposed to walk them to cool them down and then take them to the water trough. Flint didn't have any problem there. But if he didn't want water, and I had tried forcing him to drink, Flint would have kicked me into the next county. That's why I'm a firm believer that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

George I completely agree that you can’t force people to learn.

Let me ask, who is a magician? At what stage should one be considered a magician?

Or if you like maybe we could start a new topic on this?

Tom

Thanks, Tom, but I have shared my personal opinion on what makes someone a magician here many times. I don't need to rehash it.

I may regret doing this, but I just started a new thread here on how to improve the general public's perception of magic by offering opinions on the topic. As much as I think we've beaten the OP to death, maybe we can go back to it.

Here is another thought and concern about the apprentice system as it pertains to magic. I am a believer that most today do not think of magic as a job, income, or career opportunity as much as in decades past. Because of this, those that do not even know, think about, or even realize such a thing as an apprentice arrangement or relationship exists. We live in so much of a learn-it-myself and fake-it-til-you make-it mentalities world that they see this as the way to do it.

Like so many things, education and awareness is the key.

George, I must say I love the man on the street or even woman on the street (probably even better) surveying passers by on video would be a great experience and would yield very interesting results. I once did the similar type of thing with regard to the school market interviewing school professionals (NOT teachers) with a series of crucial questions regarding the school market. Not only was it the largest such survey done at the time, unexpectedly almost all of the schools and school professionals wanted to know the results. It ended up being great and very beneficial. I approached it as a large focus group and the results were amazing.

In this case (magic) I would be sure to include these few questions as well...

1. When you think of magic or a magician, what thoughts or image immediately comes to mind?

2. When you close your eyes and think of seeing a magician, what are you seeing? (type, size, etc.)

3. When you think of a magician performing what type of event or audience do you see them performing for?

4. Can you name any magicians? or How many magicians can you name?

5. If you wanted to see magic where would you go?

Another related thing to the apprentice system being discussed here is the "paying your dues process" that everyone today seems to want to work around or pretend doesn't exist. This is what has been replaced with the whole fake-it-til-you-make-it belief.

While many today will not realize it, there was so much knowledge and experience that was gained and learned from paying your dues, that often included the apprentice opportunity.