It was absolutely just the way it was. So many today just want with no limits.

Every YouTuber has an online training course now. "FOR 1.99 A MONTH!"

And yet, even with YouTubers multiplying like rabbits, singers and bands still continue to pack them in.

Even with every kid making a film with a cell phone, some real movies still have good audiences.

The Super Bowl was packed to the rafters even with the outrageously overinflated prices.

Idiots see YouTube s easy money. Even if you’re successful it isn’t.

It also isn’t a replacement for live entertainment, regardless of what some here were preaching during Covid.

Vegas just spent more than a couple dollars on The Sphere. Wouldn’t have done it if live entertainment wasn’t a thing any more.

The $1.99 is all about volume. Get enough people to say “wow only $1.99 it is worth taking a chance” and for a while you have a business. Then some forget about it and keep paying. What a sad thing.

I haven't heard too many people say "the classic YouTube Magic of TacoLover" is all. Maybe I'm wrong and one day they will.

It seems like most of the old timers, from the stories I've heard anyway, usually had an assumption that someone was familiar with some basic texts and such before they'd take them seriously as a potentialstudent or peer.

But there is some good stuff on YouTube. Rick Holcome is amazing. He also directs you where else to study that isn't YouTube. There's a fantastic Vernon biography on there.
There are a ton of awesome book reviews and interviews and documentaries on YouTube. I make extensive use of it. It's not all garbage. It's just that the good stuff is mixed in with "some dude's handkerchief master class" and it's hard for a beginner to sort the cream from the cow.


At the very least, TV and social media magic are vastly different than live magic. People can rewind, slow down, etc. The misdirection that works live doesn't often translate. Angles are different.
Rambleramblecomplaincomplain...

Should one pay for mentorship? Should apprenticeships be free? George mentioned unions in the very first post, which almost always pay their apprentices a salary or hourly wage and cover their tuition or training costs.

I have always wanted to seek out mentors for different things. However, they always wanted a significant amount of money upfront...

Mind you this is 100% my own opinion. Please nobody take it as a universal truth.

I think the arts are a bit different than unions. I have not been in a union so I have no frame of reference or preference for how it is or should be.

In my personal experience with mentors, and I mean EVERY one of them (Which was a lot more than I deserved.) I paid nothing. I was a young and willing participant in the process. I was taught. Mind you I was also not paid. I did not pay nor was I paid. I believed and still do my payment was in knowledge that I would use the rest of my life to be able to make far more money than any other profession would allow me. I was learning things that have allowed me to travel the world in first class, on other people's dime, with little more than a bag with some fairly random stuff in it.

So if this is the result, what would a good price be? I mean I will tell you everyone who mentored me was doing so INTENTIONALLY to make this happen. So what is that worth exactly in money? $10,000? To make over time many many multiples of that. So it sounds like that would be a fair trade. But in reality most times it takes no money, just dedication.

The payment in many cases for me was simply to take the art further than where I found it. In other cases it was just about helping others when they came along. Being selfish is really bad karma.

In short I don't know if paying for mentorship is right or wrong. I can easily make a case for if you pay it is not the worst thing. As I said the knowledge is almost priceless. The question is if you are paying, are you actually being mentored? At that point aren't you just a student of some sort? Mind you I am asking questions as I don't know the rules.

One way I think is very reasonable is to have the apprentice do work that needs to be done. If you want to be a hypnotist then come set up chairs and do pre show stuff. If you want to be an illusionist then unload trucks and get the show ready. There are PLENTY of ways to "pay" for your lessons and this is all stuff that has to be learned anyhow if you ever want to apply the knowledge. Seems like a fair trade to me.

Significant amounts of money up front sounds more like school than mentorship to me.

I think it is important not to intertangle the terms to separate each of these to have the proper understanding as they often are used interchangeably in the magic community.

All of them have costs to them typically. An apprenticeship is usually done in cost by their time and effort in exchange to the sharing of insight, knowledge, and experience. Coaching and mentoring often have a monetary price for the opportunity. All of these are much better than trying to figure it out on your own. You usually won't. You might in part or in pieces or on a surface level, but not for the goods, missing pieces and knowledge of how it all works together. There is great value in coaching and mentoring. While coaching might have more formal lessons or sessions, mentoring is often more of an all encompassing overview and overseer of everything.

All have value and specific benefits to them. I have always said I think it can be the best education and investment you can get in your business, career, or performing experience. It is also the fastest ways to the desired and specific results, without the problems, hassles, and setbacks of wrong decisions, perceptions, and executions and all of the wrong mistakes you will often make on your own.

If I can double your income in 12 months, or get you to six figures in 18-24 months, that should cost something as it offers great value.

The apprentice road is longer, harder, and less specific but as an overall experience it too has great value.

You really have no ideas about it or should even think you do without understanding all it entails, again the surface level execution is much different that the reality from the inside of these arrangements.

The thing with coaching or with any "pay" based methods of learning is that usually the coach or teacher can point to other successes they have had. You can have clear expectations and it is generally their job to impart knowledge to the student. (I am NOT making a case either way, just clarifying.)

My mentor had NO IDEA how to really teach much of anything. (Well one did.) A payment is a formal agreement. You can get some expectations set and if they are not met you can simply stop. Often coaches or teachers in some way have been down the road before. They have materials (OR SHOULD!) and have a plan to execute.

I also believe it is easier to find a coach or teacher than mentor.

Each has their own merits.

Danny mentioned he thought the arts are different from the unions, and yes there are differences but also similarities. I’ll try to keep this brief.

In the U.S., we have unions for “the arts” and unions for the trades. Both types offer benefits including health insurance and retirement options.

For the arts, we have Actors Equity, Screen Actors Guild, the Director’s Guild, Writers Guild of America, the musicians union, the set designers union, and several others including AGVA, which I’ll get to below. Generally, these require you to prove some solid professional work for a period of time before they let you join. They do not have apprenticeship programs.

For the trades, we have unions for carpenters, painters, electricians, elevator repair, auto workers, and many others. I believe most of these offer paid apprenticeships of up to several years; in the case of elevator repair, it’s five years, after which you begin making union wages.

AGVA, the American Guild of Variety Artists, represents “singers & dancers in Theatrical Revues and touring shows (non-book shows), Theme Park performers, skaters, circus performers, comedians & stand-up comics, Cabaret & Club Artists, lecturers/poets/monologists/spokespersons, and Variety performers working at private parties & special events.” Their web site is at https://agvausa.com/

As far as I know, there are no unions for studio artists such as painters, sculptors, and others.

Was that brief enough?

Right now, the usual way to get trained in the arts is college: you major in theatre, music, writing, or whatever and then go find a job or become an independent. With the trades, it’s either a formal apprenticeship program or on the job training.

As far as magicians, Danny pretty much hit it: a working pro could take an apprentice and have them start low and move up as they get better. But the apprentice would need to be sure of what type of magic they want to learn. Someone who wants to do close-up would probably not go to an illusionist.

A newsletter I subscribe to has an interesting article on this very small and very old Japanese shop that makes tea caddies. Right now a guy is going through a ten-year apprenticeship program and loving it: https://bigthink.com/the-long-game/mastery-kaikado/

Agva and actors unions are more a health insurance thing than apprenticeships.

Right. None of the arts unions have apprenticeships. But you have to belong to them to work on union-controlled jobs.

Absolutely right, and the benefits are fantastic. But not apprenticeship.