In another recent thread I brought up the topic of "paying your dues" in the early stages of your performing, career, or business. Today, we live in a world where everyone wants things handed to them on a silver platter with a pretty bow on it just for the asking, and if they don't get it they whine, cry, and complain. Then they adamantly set out to "find another way" for instant gratification which almost always results in the "fake-it-til-you-make it" business model. We've see it here many times over the years.

I was talking to a coaching client student of mine when he asked about the whole "paying your dues" process. It ended up being a great discussion and lesson reflecting back on what at the time was difficult and a pain in the ***, but in retrospect can be seen much differently and appreciable.

But in looking back, there was so much to be learned and gain from the paying your dues days and process, I thought it might be good to discuss some of the paying your dues things you did, had to do (often to make ends meet), went through, sucked it up and tolerated, or endured to finally get to where you were trying to go. It has often been referred to as the starving artist or the "sponge" where you tried to learn as much as possible to propel you to where you need to get to. Venues, crap-gigs, getting ripped-off, being taken advantage of, not being paid, terrible performing conditions, etc.

For me personally as an example, I remember working 5-6 nights a week (for years) in nightclubs (not bars or pubs) but nightclubs that had entertainment in lounges or showrooms. They really do not exist much anymore these days, but from a period years I worked these clubs starting any where from $75 a night to $350 a night. I remember at he time TV shows like Saturday Night Live, Happy Days, and Charlie's Angels were popular and the next day everyone would be talking about these and when asked I had never been able to see any of these because I worked in the clubs each night. This was before the VCR came out in '79 so when you could only watch things live (even then when they first came out they wee way too expensive for most people to buy). It wasn't until years later that I was able to catch up on these, lol.

But...that was a time where I learned so much. You gained actual hands-on, real-world training, knowledge and experience. Like so many, I was working the default business model as a starting point, and fortunately was able to use this period to propel me to where I eventually wanted to go with a better business model. For a while, of course they overlapped but back then the club scene offered so much experience, new relationships, and steady followers and regulars that would later prove beneficial, and sooooo much more.

When you hear many performers talk about their early days and the paying your dues experiences, they often make it come off as it being terrible, tough, difficult, and dreadful, but for many it helped make them become what they eventually became.

So, please share with us your paying your dues thoughts, stories, warts and all. Most long-time performers have them, and most newer performers can learn from them.

This will be a lot more random thought theater than I am generally comfortable with but here goes.

The concept really dovetails with the idea that "you need some place to be not so great at performance so you have the time to get great at performance". Nobody, and I do mean nobody is automatically great at their chosen art form. You must develop it and in front of an audience. For example the iconic rock band Jethro Tull has an interesting way they got their name. No that is not the name of the flute player. They were getting booed off stage every night. They kept changing names. The first time they were liked well enough to get a short residency, they were using the name Jethro Tull. The name belonged to an actual 18th-century agriculturalist famous for inventing the seed drill, a farming tool. They were in the process of "paying their dues", while being able to grow to being less than bad. The two concepts are intertwined.

Every artist needs a place to develop as an artist. They need flight time and they have to be able to do it in front of people. Charlie Schulien used to tell me we learn our craft from each other and we learn our art from our audience. If you don't have a place to be able to do it then there is no real development.

So naturally during this process you are just not as valuable as after this process. The concept of paying your dues is not too tough if you don't think you are somehow entitled to it or if you believe that it includes YouTube videos. If for example after 15 years you are just as good as you were 15 years prior, well than that says a lot about just how bad the show you offer is. We are supposed to learn, we are supposed to grow and we are supposed to be better. These are the real secrets of magic that don't for some reason show up in books.

I have paid my dues in every type of performance I use. In addition to the Schulien and Magic Inc. connections when I learned the hypnosis show the first thing I did was work a deal with Sandals. They used to (I am not sure if the still do.) have a deal where if you did X number of shows a week, you could stay with your significant other for that time "free". It was a trade out. I worked a 6 month deal with them (Turned out hurricane Floyd had different plans in mind!) The value of working 6 nights a week for months for different audiences was incalculable. I wasn't making much, but I wasn't spending much as the place was all inclusive. I was gaining experience, while not being great. The show improved immensely and quickly. Then I worked the comedy club contacts and booked the show there and did the fairs when needed to fill in dates.

I wasn't trying to charge in the beginning at Sandals, what I ended up charging once I was great at it. Same with Schulien's. I stayed there 10 years with an open platform to be able to learn. In this case I was EXTREMELY fortunate. It was the place most guys aspired to and worked up to and here I was learning there. I took 100% full advantage of this good fortune. I never let an opportunity go by to learn. I was also fortunate that Charlie Schulien insisted on me being paid. Wouldn't hear of me not accepting the money to work. He was at heart a businessman. He taught me the restaurant business as well. Who knows better than a guy who had a restaurant in the family for about 110 years?

Comedy clubs almost have a built in pay your dues system. You start at open mic nights and sort of move up from there. There was an agent back a billion years ago named David Tribble. He booked shows through the American Northwest. They were called "Tribble Runs" by those of us who worked them. A series of one night shows. You had to be good enough, but not national headline acts. It gave you the opportunity to become something. It even gave those who wanted to work out material once they were something a place to do so. So while paying your dues, having a place to be not great while becoming so, you ALSO made contacts and developed a network that will be used the rest of the career.

This is the NEXT step in "paying your dues." Meeting people and being able to learn from them and it being mutually beneficial later on down the line is great. People ask me all the time how I can keep working on the level I do without a huge internet presence? Simple. I know people. It is all from "paying my dues".

So the fact is it is not just one thing, it is many many things all dovetailed together to make the process beneficial for all involved. And so it goes on spinning this thing of ours. UNTIL someone tries to circumvent the process. Someone is entitled to their "opinion" and just can't help posting. They say crazy stuff to encourage those who offer nonsense with other nonsense like "fly little eagle fly". It ruins any chance the person has at success. If you haven't been through this process it is almost impossible to teach someone else how to do it.

I had worked my way into The Funny Bone comedy club chain through this sort of series of relationships. I was told by the owner of the South Bend Funny Bone to call the Davenport location. I called and he said "Ok who do you know? Better yet more specific, who do you know that I know? Because I am going to call them as soon as we hang up". This was the guy who booked 12 locations. Couple years later he moved to Tampa and was booking the Improv.

The entire reason I knew the guy at the South Bend location was he liked magic. So he used me as an MC. I got to stay at the condo with some great comics. When Abbots was happening that year I took him to meet Jay Marshall and all his friends. He was just in heaven. So that November he used me for Christmas parties. When someone called for a magician he sent me, a hypnotist he sent me, a comedian he sent me. I was the MC at the club when I didn't have a show. Again relationships from paying my dues. After that he hooked me up in Green Bay and Davenport. This is 100% of the way I have done things for decades. It was easy with comedy clubs because they were 1 or two week engagements. You don't need too many to make your year. (By the way not once did I care if someone said something I thought was "mean". I just didn't care. I didn't worry about silly self help guru sayings or books. I was out there doing it.

Heck when we started with the resorts in Playa del Carmen I had to start the process all over again. I had an apartment SO small when I put the key in the keyhole I broke the window. By the end of the first year I was in and out of literally every resort that used that type of entertainment from Cancun to Tulum. The entertainment staff CONSTANTLY changed resorts and all of them knew me. I was turning down more work than I was doing. All without a web page or a business card. I was "paying my dues" in THAT industry. It didn't take as long because what I was offering by this point was a polished headline show. It only took a couple months to get done what I wanted. After 17 years when Covid hit we were doing about 1,500 shows a year, needless to say providing other entertainers for them. It was about 33 shows a week.

And on and on it goes.

I recommend paying your dues for a MULTITUDE of reasons.

I was thinking about this after writing another post, and it dawned on me that when I started out as a kid trying different material and different acts, I was paying my dues without realizing it. But I think the key to "really paying your dues" is to listen and learn.

For instance, I tried doing a clown magic act one summer during HS at the suggestion of two guys who did clown magic acts. Man I put work into that act: costume, makeup, name, schtick, material, props, promotion, everything. I read about clown magic acts and even about real clowns. The shows went over fine, the clients were happy and a good time was had by all, and I made decent money for a high school kid, but something just wasn't right. So I listened to myself and heard that that wasn't the right direction for me.

Was it a mistake to try doing those shows? Nope. I learned from it.

Well, now we know how old, I mean, how wise you are! LOL.

Great topic! I’d like to share 2 examples:

I wanted to be a nightclub and casino performer but realized I needed a more steady income. I decided table magic in restaurants would not only get me steady work but also put me in front of many prospects. It was also a great way to hone my craft, doing the same routines, repeatedly. It was also a way to explore my stage personality.

My first summer I was booked 6 nights per week, including 4 nights a week at the one restaurant. At this 4-night a week restaurant I would get paid in cash at the end of the 4th night. Many times, the owner would not pay me right away because he was, ‘busy.’ I remember sitting at the bar waiting. Sometimes I sat long enough to have 2 beers!

A year later the place closed. It occurred to me the reason I had to wait so long was probably because he didn’t have the cash to pay me until a certain point in the evening! I guess I was lucky I got paid every week!

At another point in my career, after 2 years of being a full-time performer, I had to admit to myself I needed a second income. I had made great progress and was steadily getting 3 to 5 shows per weekend but had nothing on the weekdays.

At the time I had 2 young children to support. So, it needed to be a significant income. I got my dealer license and became a Blackjack dealer. (I worked for Donald Trump. LOL.) The only problem is, they wanted me to work their busiest times, the weekends!

So, for 3 years, on Saturday’s and Sunday’s, I would work the 4am to noon shift at the casino, and then do 2 or 3 shows that day.

The good news is my weekdays were open. This is when I wrote and marketed my first school assembly. Once my weekday work started to book, I could quit the casino.

This is what it takes sometimes to make it. I know some in the younger generation that don’t even want to work ONE job, and the lure welfare makes that possible.

Honestly, I’m probably not much better off financially than most, but I know the satisfaction of ‘paying your dues’ and being a productive member of society. And that is worth a lot more than money!

Great stories, thanks for sharing. Wow, working 4 a.m.to noon, THEN going out and doing shows. That is paying your dues! While many of us had these types of paying your dues situations, and many are similar, I find them both interesting and beneficial to hear about these to see how far we have come, and also how the times have changed in certain performing aspects. As I said showrooms, lounges, and supper clubs, which used to be quite mainstream and popular (and a few still exist today) are mostly gone. Today you hear about bars and pubs. I remember old private Key Clubs were popular for several decades, and again they are mostly gone. In Chicago and Lake Geneva, Wisconsin he had the Playboy clubs which were huge and popular at the time.

So many of the people, venues, and experiences helped shape us into the performers and business owners we are today. Many of the mentors and apprentice relationships many had started during this time from these venues.

I like Ken's phrase "what it takes to make it" as it really says so much about this process, which many would have never attained "making it" without these.

“Paying your dues” is negative because it normalizes unnecessary hardship, implying people must suffer before they deserve respect or opportunity. In any job or career, performing or otherwise, you will pay your dues at some point in time.

But as for a story... I think the ultimate is getting woken up at 6 AM cause the bus broke down and you now have to help crossload an over-packed and legally over weight bus trailer into a recently rented u-haul truck that is parked on a sloped exit ramp of an interstate. oh yeah... and the temperature is 30 degrees. you can imagine that was only the first part of a really rough week on tour since now the tour that was routed for a bus, is going to happen with 2 mini vans and a uhaul.

Unnecessary hardship? that's a joke right?

Isn't it more paying for information and opportunity instead of just assuming you are entitled to it?

5 yrs of Restaurant gigs taught me how to approach groups and not take things personally when people decline seeing my magic.
Trying stage show materials at local comedy clubs and variety shows allowed me to build my stage show bit by bit.

Those 2 early roads helped me build my reportire for the corporate market.

Doing the college circuit for 7 years taught me how to create a one-man theater experience where I get to "be me".
I get to create magic that deeply expresses something meaningful through magic.
This experience taught me how to balance storytelling, an important message, and magic without convoluting the message or lose the audience.
It paved the way for my speaking career right now.

And in the beginning part of my speaking career, I'd speak anywhere they'd have me even for free: rotary clubs, lion club, chamber of commerce, you name it. YES, FREE!

If I've learned anything: In the very beginning of my career I was afraid to charge so low because I didn't want to undercut someone who is more established in the market. I was afraid I'd **** off the veterans.
Later on a mentor in the college market told me: "Don't be afraid to charge whatever you feel comfortable. Other performers don't pay your bills, you do"

So true. Because now that I'm more established in my market, I don't care if a client chose someone who charges way less than me because of budget.
I'm not mad at that newcomer. I lost the gig because either a.) I haven't communicated clearly why I'm their best choice or b.) they are not my client.

Cheers gang

it's a 2 sided coin... just like the one I have in a drawer somewhere next to a folding quarter. haha.

It is only av two sided coin if you believe you are somehow entitled to the information. Otherwise it ya got life generally works.

I like the way every aspect of this involves you grinding it out while you are learning. As a matter of fact so does everyone’s story.

None of it involves “fake it till you make it”. It is put your shoulder down and forge ahead and learn.

Amazing mentality.

As for having no responsibility to other performers I can only say amen. They do and charge what they do and you do the same. Let the market sort it out.

What's paying your dues in 2025? Posting a trick per day on social media possibly?

Crazy to think that one tiktok could be seen by as many people as a Worlds Greatest Magic special back in the day.

And yet what good comes from it?

Do you seriously believe that is paying dues in any fashion? I’ll help, it is not.

That is just not how it goes. Much like “virtual shows are the future” that sentiment will age like milk.

Well that's what I'm asking... in 2025 what is paying your dues?

It is the same.

Doing things you may not like to learn the things you need.

Believe it or not you aren’t just entitled to have people teach you things.

i mean you're not entitled to anything, I'm not entitled to anything. nobody is.

This seems pretty entitled to me.

how so?

I think the semantic issue here is that "paying your dues" can mean either or both:

1) Putting the time/effort/money into learning and grinding, and overcoming adversity as a learning process; or

2) Being hazed/bullied/gatekept because that is what the people before you had to endure.

Often the 2nd meaning is smuggled long with the first, and it can be hard to separate in the minds of folks who had to endure #2 themselves.

Hazing is a frat boy practice that has nothing to do With legitimately paying your dues. Bullies may conflate the two because that is all that hazing actually is.

If someone can’t separate the two then that is their issue and they should figure it out. Not project it onto others.

It is sort of like equating paying for your lunch with a bully stealing your lunch money.