It's not just bullies--it's also otherwise level-headed people who aren't able to separate out the things that harmed their growth (but still led them to where they are today) and the hard things that were necessary for their growth. Trying to say that the problem only exists in an obvious "other" group is a great way to pretend it isn't occurring. This is something that isn't unique to magic, but many other long-standing groups (you mention frats, but they don't have a monopoly on hazing/gatekeeping).

Hard things are often necessary. Hazing has nothing to do with hard work. Hazing is bullying and it is that simple. It has no place in the legitimate learning of an art, even if one went through it themselves.

Nobody is pretending it isn’t happening, at least I’m not. I’m just calling it what it is.

While you present two different meanings of paying your dues, I was clearly talking about putting in the time, effort, investment as part of the learning and getting established process, which is what most responding to this thread have provided. I thought my initial question was pretty clear on this, but since you brought it up, I do not think gatekeeping is considered hazing or bullying. It is just preserving a precedence of which the process leads up to as part of the art or science.

As far as "What's paying your dues in 2025?" It is still the exact same thing as it has always been...Starting at usually a lesser, likely undesirable or less desirable position to gain some insight, experience, and start learning your chops. It is often a market or venue that has low entry barriers, where the beginning default model can be worked to gain knowledge and experience. Many consider street performing or busking such a market, or perhaps, restaurant work, or kids parties. While yes, some choose to stay at these markets/levels and continue with the default business model, most strive for something greater such as corporate, theaters, a traveling or touring show, cruise ships, the school or college market, fairs, festivals, residencies, etc.

These are not typically markets that welcome those just starting out or that are starting points, but rather performing, career, and business destinations. These also aren't favorable to the new performer. It is this way for a reason. You have to gain experience and it is this that usually comes from the paying your dues process and related level venues, markets, and opportunities.

Youtube or social media is not training, education, or even an actual recognized industry performance market. There is not gatekeeper or barrier of entry, and is just me-based playing without the structure or process of paying your dues.

The process and concept of paying your dues has been around for generations, literally hundreds of years. It is not going to change because of Youtube, social media, or other off-shoot things that is not live, performing for a real audience with management, feedback, and all of the dynamics a live performance entails.

Posting a trick per day on social media has nothing to do with performing for a live audience, being part of the process of live performing, or anything to due with gaining performing and live audience experience with the desire to get to a certain or specific market or level of execution.

Exactly, especially when you don't get real feedback from the people watching.

If you bomb onstage, they usually let you know it. If you bomb while hiding behind a camera, there's no one to tell you. So you can keep posting and getting those clicks, and thinking you're hot... ah... doo-doo. I rarely if ever watch the YouTube hacks, but somehow I have a sneaking suspicion that, if they allow comments, they weed out the negative ones.

I've said it before. When word processors first came out, everyone wanted to be a writer, and a huge amount of crap was produced. When Photoshop and similar programs came out, a lot of people thought they were graphic designers, and a mountain of crap came out, and is still coming out. Same with drafting programs: everyone wanted to play architect or engineer. In my own field, theatrical design, some programs made people think they were set designers, and a mountain of crap has come out ever since.

Instantaneous gratification.

Now, with AI... never mind, don't even think of getting me started.

LOL! Man, so true! Yes, and now with AI a whole new crop of crap is headed our way!

OH there is a myriad of things wrong with thinking that social media is somehow "paying your dues".

First off the feedback is just from two groups. First those will praise you (Fly little eagle fly.) for ANYTHING you do. And the other is trolls who want to simply bash anything you do. This type of feedback can not be gauged properly.

Worse yet you do the thing 9,302 times in order to get the lighting right, the angles of the camera right and your timing right. Ugh.

Then best of all you start blocking all negative feedback and just listen to those who praise you. Wow sounds like a recipe for disaster if you ask me.

IF you want to learn to be an internet magician then this seems like a great path. Indeed posting a trick a day would be "paying your dues".

But look at the path these guys generally take. They post content DESPERATE for engagement online only. There are those who use this to push live shows with clips of live tours to quite astonishing success! That is not the animal we are dealing with here. We are discussing those who post online with no shows live to push. They just want ad revenue and think this is quick success.

So they start out legit thinking they can do something. (No they can't.) Then they run our of tricks at a blistering rate. Now what? They constantly get called on method because they are just horrible at magic anyhow. Then they start with the doing tricks that they try to sell, and then exposing tricks. Then they move to try to engage with spray painting or pranks or games. It is as inevitable as it is pathetic. Some make this formula work, but 99% are pathetic.

Now don't forget I have separated out those who are using it as engagement for fans who buy tickets and merchandise. Many comedians do this. There are some who do use the medium to great success. The medium itself is NOT the problem. Fact is when you are pathetic to begin with, social media just enables you to show many more people just how pathetic you actually are.

AI will be a tidal wave of crap!

I think what's hilarious is that history keeps repeating itself.

I received an email a few days ago from a recruiter for a company that wants to hire set and exhibit designers (two totally different fields) off-site to train AI to do their jobs, all the way from the kickoff to the construction drawings. I can't say what went through my mind here, since the Cafe doesn't allow obscenities, but it wasn't pretty. Anyway, I ignored her email.

Yesterday I received a follow-up asking me again. What I really wanted to do was write back and say I wasn't interested, but that she gave me an idea: I would start a company and hire recruiters to work at home training AI to do the work of recruiters. Considering how many more recruiters are out there (approx. 260k to 440k according to AI) than set designers (about 31,000 again according to AI), I figure I too could become a billionaire in a few years.

My problem with AI is that every single engineer-type person I've met, worked with, or heard about (and that's a huge number) over the last fifty years or so, was far more interested in the mechanics of the system they were creating than in the people working with the system. And that goes for a lot of the architects I worked with too. And certainly for programmers. Interestingly enough (for me, anyway) is that twenty-odd years ago I was working on several database programs on the side and caught myself in that mentality: focusing more on the program than on the users. Thankfully I got out of that mindset.

So back to paying your dues... Sure, use AI to think you're paying your dues and soon you too will begin to think like a robot.

Interestingly, a few days ago I received a message from someone asking my about "paying your dues" and what it is? He stated he was 23 years old, been doing magic for about five years, and had never heard of the term or process of "paying your dues" and wanted to know (seriously) if it was real or was just an "inside thing" among a few of us here on the forum?

What made it interesting to me was that it appeared this is just another step being cut out by the newer generation of magicians. I thought perhaps they deemed it unnecessary, but they would have had to have known what it was in order to even do this. But he said he's never even heard of it.

After hearing the explanation I gave him of it and what it was, he said he loved the ideas and would be very interested in it had he been aware of it. I also found this very interesting.

How much of the corner-cutting, and "just wanting to get to the good stuff" is actually preventing growth and progress, and that they be interested in if they knew it existed?

Someone once mentioned it as; "Going to Hamburg." The Beatles were considered a "bum band" back when they started playing Hamburg. The other bands actually complained about their presence, saying they were going to ruin it for everyone else. But, being there, taught them how to perform professionally. How to BE "The Beatles."

Good example.