Scott
I wasn't going to comment any more. But you made a very good point. Why if it is virtually the same thing as the original breakthrough, (like I said any magician can easily derive how they do the "in the hands effect" by intervening doing a move, and giving it back. And these moves are on the original. There are two reasons why the pros didn't like it. First, the original version was done unprofessionally, with too much couch sitting, too casual of an attitude. It seems like it is filmed in a teen camp while trying to teach the trick. Most magic videos are attempted to be made with a professional delivery and structure. So most magicians would not have liked that. Next, when anyone almost unknown in magic comes up with a really good trick, other pros with better delivery skills tend to discount the trick and method as well as the lax, too casual structure of the download. Both of these factors combined to prejudice established magicians who watched it, against it. But adding an in the spectator's hands method, with different methods added more flash to the trick. So I think that is the basic difference. The best and fundamental moves are on the first version. Any thing added, of substance, could easily be thought up by any experienced magician. So IMHO, the too casual delivery and being the new kid on the block, together combined to make it harder to appreciate this very good trick in the first version. Of course I could be wrong.

In my opinion, you’re wrong CountryMaven.

While the original breakthrough method is part of the project, there are completely unrelated methods also taught. One of the spectator handlings does use the traditional breakthrough method. Several of the other spectator methods do not use that method at all (like the one seen in the video)

Madison

I was not denying that more things have been added. But the video is not honest in one of the things shown in the spectator handling, if they did that, the wows would turn to "oh" by magicians.
Any competent magician has bought hundreds of tricks and can probably make improvements on the spectator handlings, if they
want to. but maybe you have a fairy wand.

I don't have the prodcut so I don't know if this is something included. I think not because it would require a custom made gimmick?

But this is an idea I had. If you had a tab made that was magnetic (aluminium is not) and you had a magnet that you could attach to your hand, for example your thumb, you could do a very clean version of having the spectator place the tab on the can and then ask them to put their hand on top, a few inches over the can. Then you put your hand on top of theirs and gently push their hand down onto the top of the can while saying something like "put your hand on top". And what you actually do is your hand is on top of the back of their hand, but your thumb is underneath their hand, and the thumb with the magnet will attract the tab right from the bottom of the can. So you essentially steal it out in that split second where you are telling them to cover the can.

Why not let him sell this product before knocking it off in real time on the very thread he is trying to do pre sales on? A knock off during pre sale has to be a record of some kind.

That is not cool at all. He is trying to sell it not improve it so fewer people buy it.

Tell us again about your ethics.

7 PROBLEMS LOOKING FOR A RECONCILIATION
OK, I wandered into this weeks ago trying to clarify some points of logic and got slammed. No probs other than Johannes decided to go "ad hominem" rather than address the issues with comments like "do you mind if I ask how old you are?" without addressing those issues. In Australia we call this "playing the man rather than playing the ball". I haven't looked at this thread for a while and weeks later I see I'm not alone. My intention was, and still is, to see if there is a way for Johannes to resolve these issues. I admire his work and have loved everything I've seen him do, I'm certainly not approaching this as an enemy, so here are my observations trying to use logic, numbered for easy reference:
1) It is VERY expensive, so it seems pitched at successful pros.
2) The marketing is built on FOMO so no one knows what the end price will be once the excitement dies down.
3) We only see an edited performance with crucial moves cut out.
4) The first time it is publicly performed, and of course, recorded, magicians will figure out the method, which is the very reason stated why an unedited performance can't be shown.
5) It is download only (with option for easy DIY gimmick). I expect the pirates will be flogging it for $19.95 within 2 weeks. This is the perfect pirate-friendly product. Famous, and effortless to steal, no props.
6) There is talk that the new version doesn't offer much more than its predecessor. I don't know if this is true or not but perception has a way of becoming reality in buying decisions.
7) Ergo, it seems to me the ONLY hope of a profit to reward years of blood sweat and tears is from pre-sales.
This is the problem with Intellectual Property the web has brought us (thanks, Sir Tim Berners-Lee).
It's a paradox, a conundrum, a puzzle. If I'm missing something here, I'd love to hear it but please address the numbered points.
Failing to come up with a solution in my own head, I asked AI and posted its suggestions. The fact I used AI incited derision, which I was expecting, yet there was also no clear solution amongst its suggestions. Look 'em up way back in the thread if you care.
I surely hope I'm wrong but I felt the need, rightly or wrongly, to call out "Skipper, there might be icebergs ahead!" Good luck, Johannes, I really do love the things you do and I hope that, despite my misgivings, this works wonderfully for you!

I know this was probably meant as a joke, but IP & copyright infringement is hardly Sir Tim Berners-Lee's fault. If it wasn't for him, none of us would be here arguing about a magic trick that hasn't been released yet. LOL. Plus, magicians were ripping off other magicians well before the days of the World Wide Web.

How do you expect Johannes to address those points? I'm not a fan of pre-releases and pre-orders. However, I have some sympathy with producers and creators these days, given the rampant piracy and low ethical standards of some magicians.

If you're unsure of the value the re-release might provide, read Maddison's review and decide for yourself if it is worth the asking price. I think almost everyone on here believes it is a little overpriced. However, I have a feeling this release might just live up to the hype.

We'd be arguing on Usenet instead.

Ha, very true!

6 of your 34 posts have essentially been flogging the same horse on this topic. We get it. You think Johannes' marketing strategy doesn't make sense. What is the point of continually bringing this up? You may be right but it's not like Johannes is going to change much at this point.

I’m not a fan of his marketing, but it is a choice and a valid one. The deceptive editing is the sort of rub, but he admits to it so it seems far less deceptive.

Danny Goldsmith gives a thumbs up:

"Johannes was kind enough to demo part of the breakthrough system for me and I can tell you for certain the method is sound and incredibly well motivated and thought through."

I bought the original Breakthrough by Mengel. I at first wasn't impressed because it was done in an amateurish way.
But I realize that you have to give people a chance, and upon watching it through, all the basics needed for this whole thing are in that. Again, any competent magician can add a magnet, a magnetic thumbtip, a pull or whatever to alter the in the customers hands, then taken away, shown "empty" on the top, and etc.
Again, as time goes on, I admire the effect more. Also, you have to admire the diligence they put into this. I realize that often, creators have one big hit, and that is why (without the promise of another like this), they are doing the lengthy premarketing, preshow, so ..... long. And you do have to give credit to the magicians who have quoted this as well done and very unusually good in the methods used. They have not been paid for this. One thing I do not understand, though is that the deceptive editing, done on other tricks, after they are bought, are touted as a crime worthy of something just a little lesser than a hanging. Yet, because they have not seen it, the potential buyers of a good and expensive (price-jacked) trick, compared to the original, think it is almost a favor to deceptively edit the video. I think if they just showed enough of the whole thing, the buyers would still be happy to get it. I don't understand this double standard. Also, with recent things like with Dan Harlan's book which never showed up to prepayers, this just tastes bitter to me, when the price is so jacked up, without even clearly giving a final price. So yes, it is a good trick, yes, good methods, absolutely. But this type of marketing has to stop. Too much room for people feeling ripped off in one way or another. I like the trick. I don't need anything more than the original. I can do anything they show because the best foundational moves and ideas are there, and the rest, is pretty easy to figure out with various good solutions (the spectator versions of it).

Dear people!

I hope all of you, regardless of which position you stand on in some specific topics such as price, marketing, trailer etc, see that since from the beginning of the thread I’ve been very responsive and open in my communication. Everyone who has articulated a clear question has gotten a clear answer from me. This is the feedback several of you have given me:



I’m sure everyone here would like all creators to show up like this and show that kind of care and attention to their potential customers. With the recent turn of events - what and how things are discussed here, for the last several pages already, it has been harder for me as a creator meaningfully to participate or contribute to this thread now. If you want creators to show up and get your questions answered in the Cafe, it would be good to understand and avoid the behavior that turns the forum into an environment that does not welcome creators, but repels them.

I welcome discussion and inquiry about all aspects of this project and my only ask for everyone who genuinely wants to understand something, hear the opinion/thinking on any of the aspects of the project form me as the creator, is this - ARTICULATE YOUR QUESTION clearly and respectfully (also shortly if possible)! You will get as clear answer form me as I possibly can give without going into the specifics of the methods. It would also be good to start your post with “Johannes” so I could easily identify posts with questions directed to me!

I think if every person does JUST THAT (articulates their concerns/doubts as clear questions), the discussion would already look very different and provide much more meaningful value to anyone reading the thread.

Here’s an example of a good, clear communication from Rich:



Guys, I understand many of you have been burned by other projects and mistreated by other creators. And if ANYTHING feels even remotely similar to your past experience, then your nervous system throws up all red flags, AS IT SHOULD, because this is a protection mechanism meant to protect you and calls for discernment and not to repeat your past mistakes. This is all good and natural.

What I would invite you to reflect on is - your reaction to these triggers... Do these emotions hijack you and make you jump to assumptions, conclusions and accusations (which contribute to creating an unpleasant environment, where truth and clarity is sabotaged) or you respond with discernment and make further inquiry, which is what the triggers actually call you to do (which contribute to creating a respectful environment where needed clarifications can easily get highlighted - which is what we all want.)

Here’s what I propose to people who are understandably careful about this project as they should be about any product - examine your fears and doubts and respectfully articulate them into clear questions and I do my best to answer them and give my honest opinion - do I think this product is right for you.

Here’s the thing - it is also in my interest that wrong people don’t buy the product. I only want customers who will love it, I don’t want to sell this to everyone. I’m building a community to HAVE FUN together with people who love the system and the plot and also value my time, my thinking and my approach to magic. I want to hang out with people who also want to hang out with me. Not every person is going to be a right fit for this. And it’s fine.

And the price is one of the filters to find the right people for the community - I wanna offer my time only to people who value my work. As I’ve stated before - if for someone the price is too much for what they get, it simply means they are not the audience I’m trying to reach and serve with this offer.

INVITATION

Someone here called the Cafe a cesspool, because of the energy often created here. What about turning this around, what do you think, guys, let’s show a different way? What if when it comes to how we interact with each other and how we handle our differences then - just as an experiment - from now on let’s be as loving, kind and respectful with each other as possible, REGARDLESS of our differences and let’s just see what happens?

Who’s in for the experiment? I’m in! Let’s all just take a double take before we post anything - is it loving, kind, respectful and useful. How does that sound? In the end we all are here, because we are united by the love we have for this art. So let’s not let our differences be more important than what unites us.

And if there’s someone who still tries to continue the old way, then I urge everyone not to respond to these provocations. If it’s not respectful, clear, useful post, then instead of leaning into it and feeding it with your energy, simply don't respond. If someone wants to start a cesspool, but we won’t join, it will be a cesspool only for one and I’m sure it’s not fun for this person.

Let this also be known: anyone who tries to smear someone's character just with speculations only ends up smearing their own.

Let’s bring our best character and good vibes!

MARKETING

As stated several times, this is my first time doing something like this and obviously it’s not perfect like anything we do in life for the first time. I’m sorry to hear that some of you feel this marketing is disrespectful towards you. This of course has not been my intention. For example, before I sent a single marketing email to the small list of people, who have bought my products before and were even waiting for my next release, I first sent an announcement saying I have a new release coming and will be sending several emails about it and if there’s anyone not interested in them, please unsubscribe, because I don’t want to spam anyone.

I think the way I have showed up also here is a testimony of my good and respectful intentions. I've also changed my website based on the feedback I got here. Obviously I'm not able to redo everything at that phase. Also a person who actually is an experts in this field and part of the Cafe community reached out to me privately to support what I’ve done. I can’t please everyone, but I’m happy to learn ways to improve. But I think further discussion about “how magic should/shouldn’t be marketed” should be taken under a new thread as this is not the topic of this thread. Anyone who has concrete suggestion and feedback on what I can improve should reach out to me privately, because this is not information EVERYONE reading this thread needs to hear. Let’s keep the thread relevant and on topic.

FEEDBACK FOR TBS

Just to inform you - these are not some fabricated endorsements - this was their genuine reaction to seeing the system and wanting to support it:

Mark Elsdon:


Michael Ammar:


This was the response I got from Copperfield’s team, specifically Chris Kenner (I sent 2 of my creations to them, one of them being TBS):




So to recap... I love what I have created and I'm eager to share this with people who would love this as well. If what I have shown you and communicated already and if the genuine praise from highly respected thinkers in our field, make you still doubt is this worth it for YOU - then it probably isn't. As said in my very first post: "if something else excites you more, then I'm happy with you supporting another creator!"

I bit the bullet and pre ordered, 75 is a bit steep but llyod's video put me over the edge.

Let's face it, it's a magic trick. In the scheme of things it's not going to change anyone's life. MOST of the times our spectators are amazed at that moment and then move on concerned about their own lives.

Johannes, by your post you can tell it's important to you, well because it is about you in many respects. I wish the pleas for getting along and maintaining a respectful environment, integrity
as well as your instructions on how we should act were directed to things in life that really do matter.

I can make a soda can tab penetrate and go inside the can. 12 pages and counting. Not life changing as this is being potrayed.
That's how I see it.

Rodney King---"People, I just want to say, can we all get along?
May 1 1992.

This is a Magic trick ( puzzle) People KNOW that can't happen but it's clever, their amazed, jaws drop, like MANY thousands of other illusions and move on and then forgotten.

Yes let's be kind to each other and sure for your handling of how you promote your product and reactions to it as well. That has been a battle and will continue to be. There is hope but that comes from another source.
Respectfully.

Hey Johannes, just curious if Alan Rorrison has seen the updated version. You've gotten positive endorsements from every other pro I can think of, haha. Alan wasn't a fan of the original Breakthrough. From the original product thread:

I met Johannes Mengel years ago when I was the Purchasing Manager at Murphy's Magic Supplies. He approached us with an early version of Breakthrough. I turned it down at the time - it wasn't ready yet. Johannes handled that perfectly: understanding, professional, and genuinely open to everything we discussed.

Two years later, much to my surprise, Johannes reached out again and sent a new video. He had fixed the issues and created something truly special. He never stops trying to make his magic better. So when I saw the recent ads, I placed my order and scheduled a Zoom call with him. He showed me where the project is now, and it's excellent - actually, it's even better.

For me, this was money well spent. It's something I'll use forever. The thinking is strong, and I've had a blast working with it. There's one phase where, after watching the explanation, I literally laughed - it's that smart. It's not difficult, but it will take practice to make it look as good as Johannes does. As always, he's taken a deep dive into the work. It's clear this is something he truly loves and reveres.

Is it expensive? Maybe. But for me, this is important information I'll use for the rest of my life, and that has real value. If someone feels it's overpriced, they can simply choose not to buy it. I'm honestly fine with fewer people doing this. For me, it's an investment.

I live in Santa Fe, NM, which has a huge art community. We attend many galleries and festivals, and some prices for paintings, sculptures, and carvings are far beyond my comfort zone. But who am I to tell an artist what their creation is worth? If it's more than I want to invest, that's my choice. Neither the artist nor I are wrong.

Johannes clearly loves this routine, takes tremendous pride in it, and has spent countless hours refining it. He also has other excellent creations.

Johannes is genuinely a good person. He loves magic, and his enthusiasm is infectious - like a kid sharing something he's excited about. He would never release something just to pay bills or as a cash grab. He cherishes his ideas and wants to share them with people who truly appreciate what he's offering. I fully support that.

I've seen part of The Breakthrough System, paid for it, and I'm very happy with my investment - even after seeing only a portion of the new work.

Anything Johannes releases will be on my radar, and I'll most likely buy it. I wish him the best of luck with this release.

Tim, you just echoed what Johaness said about himself and his product. That's great you both and other "named" endorsers feel the same way. The general no-name purchasers won't be able to chime in until next month. Hopefully they will echo what was quoted - "it is excellent, truly special, never seen anything else like this before, best product, final word, most impossible magic routine ever created"etc.. That would be a win-win for everyone and it "sounds" like it will be.

All the best...seriously and respectfully.

Here, here. We should all strive to be more respectful of the people who are putting themselves out there to advance our art. Creators, as in any true art form, do not owe us anything. You can either choose to engage with their output on their terms, or not.