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Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4
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ArtIn
Inner circle
2078 Posts
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Posted: May 25, 2026 04:50 pm
 1
Quote: On May 24, 2026, jkr wrote:
Quote: On May 23, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
That increasingly sounds more like promotion than an objective assessment of the facts. And this also has nothing to do with personal taste, it is already mechanically justified:
1. I want to point out that the L-shape of the Pocket King already reminded many people of the Advocate.
2. In my opinion, the concept in the base was originally conceived by Indexed from M.M.
3. I hope I’m not going too far into the details here (otherwise please delete this) but the Pocket King has a bank of 3 where a card in the middle requires more actions in order to be extracted. With the Advocate 2.0 by Madison and O’Hare, this issue has been completely eliminated thanks to the metal bars. That simply cannot be denied.
4. With the Pocket King, I first have to find the bank, then the card (and here it depends on luck whether it’s quick or takes longer), then position it, and only then extract it. With the Advocate 2.0, I simply find the card and extract it. Every card is directly accessible with the new setup.
5. With the Advocate 2.0, you also don’t have to fish around, anchor or bend your hand into an unnatural angle, and extraction is done using only the thumb.
The PK trailer mentioned earlier clearly demonstrated how natural the body mechanics and handling can look.
To me that looked fiddly despite being thumb-operated.
You’re much more likely to have to fumble around with the Pocket King by comparison. Unless you happen to get lucky and hit a top card.
That top card in the PK is comparable to a heart card in the Advocate - except that with Version 2.0, all cards are now easily accessible.
The fact that Madison gave his approval also speaks volumes to me.
As already mentioned, the best index is the one you actually use. However, when it comes to the orientation and accessibility of the cards, the details mentioned above cannot simply be ignored.
Question: Do the cards securely lock so they don’t slip out of alignment with the Advocate 2? With the Advocate Madison O‘Hare, the cards hold by the tension of your pocket and with help of the metal bars.
With Pocket King, other banks can also turn out of position and if you need a middle card you need to move three cards.
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jkr
Regular user
Mn
165 Posts
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Posted: May 25, 2026 09:32 pm
0
Quote: On May 25, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
Quote: On May 24, 2026, jkr wrote:
Quote: On May 23, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
That increasingly sounds more like promotion than an objective assessment of the facts. And this also has nothing to do with personal taste, it is already mechanically justified:
1. I want to point out that the L-shape of the Pocket King already reminded many people of the Advocate.
2. In my opinion, the concept in the base was originally conceived by Indexed from M.M.
3. I hope I’m not going too far into the details here (otherwise please delete this) but the Pocket King has a bank of 3 where a card in the middle requires more actions in order to be extracted. With the Advocate 2.0 by Madison and O’Hare, this issue has been completely eliminated thanks to the metal bars. That simply cannot be denied.
4. With the Pocket King, I first have to find the bank, then the card (and here it depends on luck whether it’s quick or takes longer), then position it, and only then extract it. With the Advocate 2.0, I simply find the card and extract it. Every card is directly accessible with the new setup.
5. With the Advocate 2.0, you also don’t have to fish around, anchor or bend your hand into an unnatural angle, and extraction is done using only the thumb.
The PK trailer mentioned earlier clearly demonstrated how natural the body mechanics and handling can look.
To me that looked fiddly despite being thumb-operated.
You’re much more likely to have to fumble around with the Pocket King by comparison. Unless you happen to get lucky and hit a top card.
That top card in the PK is comparable to a heart card in the Advocate - except that with Version 2.0, all cards are now easily accessible.
The fact that Madison gave his approval also speaks volumes to me.
As already mentioned, the best index is the one you actually use. However, when it comes to the orientation and accessibility of the cards, the details mentioned above cannot simply be ignored.
Question: Do the cards securely lock so they don’t slip out of alignment with the Advocate 2?
With the Advocate Madison O‘Hare, the cards hold by the tension of your pocket and with help of the metal bars.
With Pocket King, other banks can also turn out of position and if you need a middle card you need to move three cards. Thank you!
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bekralik
Inner circle
Canada
1572 Posts
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Posted: May 26, 2026 12:12 am
0
Quote: On May 23, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
With the Advocate Madison O‘Hare, the cards hold by the tension of your pocket and with help of the metal bars. Just picking up on the phrase 'tension of your pocket' -- if you have loose-fitting pants, are the cards likely/able to slide out?
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ArtIn
Inner circle
2078 Posts
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Posted: May 27, 2026 05:30 pm
0
The index holds together well even with looser pockets.
In the end, the space is also designed exactly for the width of a deck of cards.
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anish111b
New user
21 Posts
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Posted: May 28, 2026 11:49 pm
0
Quote: On May 23, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
That increasingly sounds more like promotion than an objective assessment of the facts. And this also has nothing to do with personal taste, it is already mechanically justified:
1. I want to point out that the L-shape of the Pocket King already reminded many people of the Advocate.
2. In my opinion, the concept in the base was originally conceived by Indexed from M.M.
3. I hope I’m not going too far into the details here (otherwise please delete this) but the Pocket King has a bank of 3 where a card in the middle requires more actions in order to be extracted. With the Advocate 2.0 by Madison and O’Hare, this issue has been completely eliminated thanks to the metal bars. That simply cannot be denied.
4. With the Pocket King, I first have to find the bank, then the card (and here it depends on luck whether it’s quick or takes longer), then position it, and only then extract it. With the Advocate 2.0, I simply find the card and extract it. Every card is directly accessible with the new setup.
5. With the Advocate 2.0, you also don’t have to fish around, anchor or bend your hand into an unnatural angle, and extraction is done using only the thumb.
The PK trailer mentioned earlier clearly demonstrated how natural the body mechanics and handling can look.
To me that looked fiddly despite being thumb-operated.
You’re much more likely to have to fumble around with the Pocket King by comparison. Unless you happen to get lucky and hit a top card.
That top card in the PK is comparable to a heart card in the Advocate - except that with Version 2.0, all cards are now easily accessible.
The fact that Madison gave his approval also speaks volumes to me.
As already mentioned, the best index is the one you actually use. However, when it comes to the orientation and accessibility of the cards, the details mentioned above cannot simply be ignored. I think it’s worth mentioning that the new Advocate setup as mentioned in Point 4 is not really covered in the tutorial. Getting into the new setup is taught but Daniel Madison clearly states that he is not yet comfortable with this new form factor and thereby all subsequent instructions revolve around the original Advocate setup.
I have a few issues related to slippage with the new setup but unfortunately there is nothing in the tutorial about it. The creator does mention that an updated instructional video might be provided after an year of him getting used to the new setup but as of this moment that does not exist.
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Vraagaard
Inner circle
Copenhagen, Denmark
1542 Posts
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Posted: May 29, 2026 11:05 am
0
Looks very interesting. I have a few pocket indexes myself, but would like to understand a little bit more of this before I make a purchase. Also, I would like to under stand The Advocate, so I will look up some reviews for "comparison". However from previous learnings I experienced, that it just takes a lot of practice feeling confident pulling the right card/4 cards. But always looking for better options, of course, so any thought and experiences you have of these two tools is appreciated.
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ArtIn
Inner circle
2078 Posts
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Posted: May 29, 2026 03:52 pm
0
Quote: On May 29, 2026, anish111b wrote:
Quote: On May 23, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
That increasingly sounds more like promotion than an objective assessment of the facts. And this also has nothing to do with personal taste, it is already mechanically justified:
1. I want to point out that the L-shape of the Pocket King already reminded many people of the Advocate.
2. In my opinion, the concept in the base was originally conceived by Indexed from M.M.
3. I hope I’m not going too far into the details here (otherwise please delete this) but the Pocket King has a bank of 3 where a card in the middle requires more actions in order to be extracted. With the Advocate 2.0 by Madison and O’Hare, this issue has been completely eliminated thanks to the metal bars. That simply cannot be denied.
4. With the Pocket King, I first have to find the bank, then the card (and here it depends on luck whether it’s quick or takes longer), then position it, and only then extract it. With the Advocate 2.0, I simply find the card and extract it. Every card is directly accessible with the new setup.
5. With the Advocate 2.0, you also don’t have to fish around, anchor or bend your hand into an unnatural angle, and extraction is done using only the thumb.
The PK trailer mentioned earlier clearly demonstrated how natural the body mechanics and handling can look.
To me that looked fiddly despite being thumb-operated.
You’re much more likely to have to fumble around with the Pocket King by comparison. Unless you happen to get lucky and hit a top card.
That top card in the PK is comparable to a heart card in the Advocate - except that with Version 2.0, all cards are now easily accessible.
The fact that Madison gave his approval also speaks volumes to me.
As already mentioned, the best index is the one you actually use. However, when it comes to the orientation and accessibility of the cards, the details mentioned above cannot simply be ignored.
I think it’s worth mentioning that the new Advocate setup as mentioned in Point 4 is not really covered in the tutorial. Getting into the new setup is taught but Daniel Madison clearly states that he is not yet comfortable with this new form factor and thereby all subsequent instructions revolve around the original Advocate setup.
I have a few issues related to slippage with the new setup but unfortunately there is nothing in the tutorial about it. The creator does mention that an updated instructional video might be provided after an year of him getting used to the new setup but as of this moment that does not exist. In my tutorial the new setup is covered. You should write Madison.
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LankyHobo
Elite user
462 Posts
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Posted: May 29, 2026 03:56 pm
0
Quote: On May 28, 2026, anish111b wrote:
I think it’s worth mentioning that the new Advocate setup as mentioned in Point 4 is not really covered in the tutorial. Getting into the new setup is taught but Daniel Madison clearly states that he is not yet comfortable with this new form factor and thereby all subsequent instructions revolve around the original Advocate setup.
I have a few issues related to slippage with the new setup but unfortunately there is nothing in the tutorial about it. The creator does mention that an updated instructional video might be provided after an year of him getting used to the new setup but as of this moment that does not exist. So the tutorial for the Advocate 2 is mainly about how to use the original Advocate? And if Daniel isn't comfortable using the new device and it's going to take him a year to get used to it, then that doesn't sound encouraging.
.
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LankyHobo
Elite user
462 Posts
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Posted: May 29, 2026 04:08 pm
0
Quote: On May 29, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
In my tutorial the new setup is covered. You should write Madison. Hi. Can you ask your thoughts on how difficult / easy the Advcocate 2 device is to use please? You find it easier than Pocket King? Thanks.
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anish111b
New user
21 Posts
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Posted: May 29, 2026 10:08 pm
0
Quote: On May 29, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
Quote: On May 29, 2026, anish111b wrote:
Quote: On May 23, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
That increasingly sounds more like promotion than an objective assessment of the facts. And this also has nothing to do with personal taste, it is already mechanically justified:
1. I want to point out that the L-shape of the Pocket King already reminded many people of the Advocate.
2. In my opinion, the concept in the base was originally conceived by Indexed from M.M.
3. I hope I’m not going too far into the details here (otherwise please delete this) but the Pocket King has a bank of 3 where a card in the middle requires more actions in order to be extracted. With the Advocate 2.0 by Madison and O’Hare, this issue has been completely eliminated thanks to the metal bars. That simply cannot be denied.
4. With the Pocket King, I first have to find the bank, then the card (and here it depends on luck whether it’s quick or takes longer), then position it, and only then extract it. With the Advocate 2.0, I simply find the card and extract it. Every card is directly accessible with the new setup.
5. With the Advocate 2.0, you also don’t have to fish around, anchor or bend your hand into an unnatural angle, and extraction is done using only the thumb.
The PK trailer mentioned earlier clearly demonstrated how natural the body mechanics and handling can look.
To me that looked fiddly despite being thumb-operated.
You’re much more likely to have to fumble around with the Pocket King by comparison. Unless you happen to get lucky and hit a top card.
That top card in the PK is comparable to a heart card in the Advocate - except that with Version 2.0, all cards are now easily accessible.
The fact that Madison gave his approval also speaks volumes to me.
As already mentioned, the best index is the one you actually use. However, when it comes to the orientation and accessibility of the cards, the details mentioned above cannot simply be ignored.
I think it’s worth mentioning that the new Advocate setup as mentioned in Point 4 is not really covered in the tutorial. Getting into the new setup is taught but Daniel Madison clearly states that he is not yet comfortable with this new form factor and thereby all subsequent instructions revolve around the original Advocate setup.
I have a few issues related to slippage with the new setup but unfortunately there is nothing in the tutorial about it. The creator does mention that an updated instructional video might be provided after an year of him getting used to the new setup but as of this moment that does not exist.
In my tutorial the new setup is covered. You should write Madison. I meant the new setup with the c**bs. He only goes over the basics of getting to that setup and then says that he is not yet comfortable with it yet and demonstrates the rest of the tutorial in the same card setup that is used in the original advocate( the one with the banks of 3).
Did your version come with anything apart from the original 5 hour masterclass and the new 1.5 hour video?
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Kaliix
Inner circle
Connecticut
2137 Posts
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Posted: May 30, 2026 05:49 pm
0
I just bought Eddie Raymonds RnS index. The cards are not in tension, but there is NO WAY those cards are coming out of the index in your pocket. I can hold ER's index sideways, shake it, and the cards stay in place.
In the RnS index, there are three rows of guide tabs with four tabs each. At most, you would have to slide past two tabs to get to the third row. Ryland Petty learned this in an hour and was accurately performing a pick any card produced from a pocket at performing speed after a couple of days. Very intuitive...
Quote: On May 25, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
Quote: On May 24, 2026, jkr wrote:
Quote: On May 23, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
That increasingly sounds more like promotion than an objective assessment of the facts. And this also has nothing to do with personal taste, it is already mechanically justified:
1. I want to point out that the L-shape of the Pocket King already reminded many people of the Advocate.
2. In my opinion, the concept in the base was originally conceived by Indexed from M.M.
3. I hope I’m not going too far into the details here (otherwise please delete this) but the Pocket King has a bank of 3 where a card in the middle requires more actions in order to be extracted. With the Advocate 2.0 by Madison and O’Hare, this issue has been completely eliminated thanks to the metal bars. That simply cannot be denied.
4. With the Pocket King, I first have to find the bank, then the card (and here it depends on luck whether it’s quick or takes longer), then position it, and only then extract it. With the Advocate 2.0, I simply find the card and extract it. Every card is directly accessible with the new setup.
5. With the Advocate 2.0, you also don’t have to fish around, anchor or bend your hand into an unnatural angle, and extraction is done using only the thumb.
The PK trailer mentioned earlier clearly demonstrated how natural the body mechanics and handling can look.
To me that looked fiddly despite being thumb-operated.
You’re much more likely to have to fumble around with the Pocket King by comparison. Unless you happen to get lucky and hit a top card.
That top card in the PK is comparable to a heart card in the Advocate - except that with Version 2.0, all cards are now easily accessible.
The fact that Madison gave his approval also speaks volumes to me.
As already mentioned, the best index is the one you actually use. However, when it comes to the orientation and accessibility of the cards, the details mentioned above cannot simply be ignored.
Question: Do the cards securely lock so they don’t slip out of alignment with the Advocate 2?
With the Advocate Madison O‘Hare, the cards hold by the tension of your pocket and with help of the metal bars.
With Pocket King, other banks can also turn out of position and if you need a middle card you need to move three cards.
Know that adversity is promised to all of us, what we do with it is what makes us special.
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ArtIn
Inner circle
2078 Posts
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Posted: May 31, 2026 08:30 am
0
Quote: On May 30, 2026, anish111b wrote:
Quote: On May 29, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
Quote: On May 29, 2026, anish111b wrote:
Quote: On May 23, 2026, ArtIn wrote:
That increasingly sounds more like promotion than an objective assessment of the facts. And this also has nothing to do with personal taste, it is already mechanically justified:
1. I want to point out that the L-shape of the Pocket King already reminded many people of the Advocate.
2. In my opinion, the concept in the base was originally conceived by Indexed from M.M.
3. I hope I’m not going too far into the details here (otherwise please delete this) but the Pocket King has a bank of 3 where a card in the middle requires more actions in order to be extracted. With the Advocate 2.0 by Madison and O’Hare, this issue has been completely eliminated thanks to the metal bars. That simply cannot be denied.
4. With the Pocket King, I first have to find the bank, then the card (and here it depends on luck whether it’s quick or takes longer), then position it, and only then extract it. With the Advocate 2.0, I simply find the card and extract it. Every card is directly accessible with the new setup.
5. With the Advocate 2.0, you also don’t have to fish around, anchor or bend your hand into an unnatural angle, and extraction is done using only the thumb.
The PK trailer mentioned earlier clearly demonstrated how natural the body mechanics and handling can look.
To me that looked fiddly despite being thumb-operated.
You’re much more likely to have to fumble around with the Pocket King by comparison. Unless you happen to get lucky and hit a top card.
That top card in the PK is comparable to a heart card in the Advocate - except that with Version 2.0, all cards are now easily accessible.
The fact that Madison gave his approval also speaks volumes to me.
As already mentioned, the best index is the one you actually use. However, when it comes to the orientation and accessibility of the cards, the details mentioned above cannot simply be ignored.
I think it’s worth mentioning that the new Advocate setup as mentioned in Point 4 is not really covered in the tutorial. Getting into the new setup is taught but Daniel Madison clearly states that he is not yet comfortable with this new form factor and thereby all subsequent instructions revolve around the original Advocate setup.
I have a few issues related to slippage with the new setup but unfortunately there is nothing in the tutorial about it. The creator does mention that an updated instructional video might be provided after an year of him getting used to the new setup but as of this moment that does not exist.
In my tutorial the new setup is covered. You should write Madison.
I meant the new setup with the c**bs. He only goes over the basics of getting to that setup and then says that he is not yet comfortable with it yet and demonstrates the rest of the tutorial in the same card setup that is used in the original advocate( the one with the banks of 3).
Did your version come with anything apart from the original 5 hour masterclass and the new 1.5 hour video? The ADVOCATE by MADISON x O'HARE tutorial is 1:17:27.
Then it was a misunderstanding because I assumed that you might not have seen this part yet.
To avoid this Bank of 3 issue, I really find the new setup an outstanding change. Riffling cards, go in and extract and that for all cards.
I also found the first Advocate brilliant because of its simplicity.
To be able to have a reliable index with only one card box anywhere and immediately. I still think back to the EMC Lecture.
For me the new Advocate works better (because of the solved Bank of 3 issue). I also love Cheetah 52 and Q for different occasions.
So Pocket King might be the best choice for another person.
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The Great Dave
Loyal user
My Wife said "It's Me or that Stupid Magic Website!" this many times: 26,
259 Posts
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Posted: May 31, 2026 06:47 pm
0
You guys need to take this someplace else. This forum is not for reviews.
Academy of Magical Arts
Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat! Whoops, wrong hat ...
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Wravyn
Inner circle
4246 Posts
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Posted: May 31, 2026 10:39 pm
2
Nor is this thread about a different index. I can understand the comparison, yet it seems as if Pocket King is no longer the subject of the thread.
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