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unilogo Veteran user Las Vegas , NV 359 Posts |
Ok so I have read the "regular magicians" thoughts on my trick and well now I need the thought of you guys that I am guessing like bizarre magic;)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok this is I guess a bizarre or scary or disgusting trick , call it what it is. I do not expose anything I just tell you what you need...if you shop for the items you can and WILL figure it out. Here we go.....I do not think its ever been done Im extrememly sure but this is how it would go you will need... 1)rabbit or a dove pan double load. 2)A cake or any other dessert. 3)A if you want shock ( dead animal with guts out or some real live bugs) , or if you are a little more conservative which will ruin the trick and it would be more funny I guess a stuffed rabbit with a funny face well showing guts. The effect.... Magician shows a pan that's empty. (ima leave the patter to you). First time he opens it with nothing in it. Next he shows a dead animal.(or whatever you chose)...finally he produces the cake or dessert. Then asks if anyone is hungry..... IF you have read this far it is pretty obvious how to do it....if you own the pan..so I don't think I have to explain it step by step. to keep the bunny or whatever from smelling keep it in a bag before and after show. rate the trick anyone?I do a "scary show "so no problem for me. But the audience.....maybe I should use a disclaimer about the hurting of animals or being squeirmish.(sp?) |
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Stuart Hooper Special user Mithrandir 759 Posts |
What is the why behind this? The motivaion? Do you work for the Roadkill Café? If you can think about why you are showing your audience this...we might be better able to discuss it.
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unilogo Veteran user Las Vegas , NV 359 Posts |
I am not going to do this is the "roadkill " Café...actually...sorry for the smart aleky response.
Well it's sheer shock with food. My motivation is entertainment....that some people might enjoy.... Its pretty intersting how people are drawing the line with me when I though magic is an art of expression....I am really disappointed. Art is no limits of expression. It's to create shock and kind of show it is "not your moms magic show", if you choose to go in..you will get shocked. Controversy will be there and frankly I do not care. I am myself ...and well if I'm a psycho ...I do not wanna take part of this art we call magic. If it has limits....I am who I am and some people MIGHT enjoy it. Just my expression. |
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Stuart Hooper Special user Mithrandir 759 Posts |
I completely agree that there are no limits to the extent which we may express ourselves with the Art of magic, but what, specifically, *are you trying to express* here?
Shock, horror, disgust, delight, joy, entertainment, these are RESPONSES and audience might have to our expression. You say that you are shocking your audience and they may or may not like it, but you are doing it because you it's YOUR expression. This sense of self, is something many magicians seem to lack, and I applaud you on it. I think your act would benifit greatly however, if you think deeply about what you are trying to express. Just remember that shock is not the expression, is it the result of your expression. Please share the missing piece. |
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R2 Special user 935 Posts |
Corny, tasteless and by no means expressing anything, but cruelty. Please do us all a favour and remove it from your mind?
No Bizarrist in their proper creative mind would be caught, (please excuse the pun?) "dead" with a dovepan in their programs. I am not saying that you can't express yourself, but above all else this is a corny effect. Bizarrist pride themselves on being X-treme, but not corny! I may be entirely wrong, so please tell me what it is that you are trying to express with this idea? You said;____________________ Magician shows a pan that's empty. (I leave the patter to you). ______________________- Please tell us what your patter is so that we can read more into your expression. Too often magicians say this because they don't have patter, context, or a basic storyline. I can't wait to hear your response. I am not trying to be cruel so please don't get defensive. Try to remember that you asked us for our opinions and when you do such a thing you should listen with an open mind and be willing to face the critical opinions along with the favourable ones. This is what separates the artist from the hack! |
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Stuart Hooper Special user Mithrandir 759 Posts |
Without motivation, or an idea of what he is expressing, yes the trick is awful, Rey.
But supposing he does have a *point*, it might all come together. It better be a *** good motivation, though. |
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R2 Special user 935 Posts |
I totally agree Stuart. So far, the trick is corny or awful. If he has a point, then perhaps it will come together, however I seriously doubt it.
That's why he left the patter to us remember? |
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kaytracy Inner circle Central California 1793 Posts |
Art does come in many forms, and is , so they say, in the eye of the beholder. (Salvador Dali is a good example of the more unusual art form)
That being said, I personally do not see any art in the description you have given. Shock or disgust is usually a reaction, but rarely thought of as an emotion. I see the emotions you might generate towards your "act" as those of dislike, leading to perhaps more violent reactions. This is not to say there are not some people out there in the big world who would not find it to their liking, but it seems you misunderstand the consensual definitions that go with Bizarre Magick. It may be just a function of the times and attitudes of the general society. What I get the impression you are thinking of doing would perhaps be better suited to a haunted house theme event, where there is no story per se', just shock or scare value, the gross out factor seems right in there. As a trick, which you ask about in the title fo our post, it is rather flat and lackluster. You have not given any reason for the transpositions to occur. You call it art, but you cannot have it both ways, either it is art, or a trick, while they are not always mutually exclusive, you seem unclear in what you are asking for feedback on. If this sort of thing floats your boat, then great- but again, I see it as more of a haunted house bit than anything else.
Kay and Tory
www.Bizarremagick.com |
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unilogo Veteran user Las Vegas , NV 359 Posts |
Well you guys made some points...and I just left the presentation flat to you guys to get the initial response as to the technical side of the trick..so I guess I was just wanting to get feedback on the trick itself.However now I realize how muchthought you guys have on the subject so ok....
The thing is ok I am a person who is really sick at how people seem to loose them selves and sell out to society as soon as they are born(Like they are talked by their parents to BELIEVE in things they believe in like their religion and how one thing is gross and other things are not). Even the slightest thing like picking your nose might seem aweful but hey the kid might believe its no big deal, afterall its just part of your body. But he eventually is forced into being just like his parents.Now on to the next one... People watch violet movies and people eat meat so iniatially this trick should be of no shock. I would not use any endangered species just plain normal animals of the butcher shop which are displayed there the whole day with no response. However when it is part of my act it automatically turns into the end of the world for the animal and for me. Its meat and disposable meat like guts that no one wants and will get thrown out anyways.People have seen this a lot and they don't care...but again in my show its shock.My point is how people will seem this as a gross item but to me its just meat and hopefully somehow they can forgive me with the cake I offer them afterwards.which is insulting... Insult is a feeling too,you know...and that's why all art displays all feelings not just beign happy all the time. that's why we are bizarrist. I am well an "insulter", why cant that be a new style of magic...cause well it just cant.....magic has noroom for that....because we are all told it can not exist. Sure it can and I want to do it....Its how I FEEL. It might seem tastless and maybe it is that's why we have scary movies that show people butchering on each other.Guess what some people like it and I am sure the creator did too. So hopefully some people can enjoy my magic. they should be more involved with feeding starving people in third world countries if they want to be good. Not worring about what I am doing with disposable food.After all those people would eat what I am displaying and hopefully they can understand that that is not gross to those people and they would eat it. Now that is sad...hopefully they can leave thinking about those people that are poor and not how controversial I am. They are not so good. If the world was good there would be no war,famine or any other problems . If they wanna work to be good do it all the time not just when you see something shocking. Yes I would fix it to somehow make it work ok....I would not just display the effect and BLAM! its over....There is a reason for everything. I read all yours and I respect your opinions ... No two people are alike and not everyone wants to be just like you. you guys are cool tho |
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R2 Special user 935 Posts |
Thanks for telling us absolutely nothing about the context. I am out of here and off to a more interesting area.
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sinnead zenun Elite user Mt. Makiling 408 Posts |
I think it depends on the patter, a suitable story for doing that trick with a continous routine. maybe you can act as a mad clown ala joker and bust in a kiddie party and do that dead bunny to cake. ask anyone if they are hungry and if they don't like to eat it. then you eat the cake and laugh madly hahahahahahahahahaha! much disgusting ha
or if your more kindhearted and want to reach the inner emotions of your audince. you can ask for the spectators for any stuff toy. as a ventroquilist(?) puppet the stuff toy as if it was dying and bid farewell then it suddenly change to a cake. with the name of the stuff toy written in the cake ( a bit of mentalism) I leave to it to you how you can make the stuff toy reappear again... |
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Mark Rough Inner circle Ivy, Virginia 2110 Posts |
Look, you asked for input, you have to have thick enough skin to deal with the input you get.
As far a art goes. Believe it or not art has rules. There are things you can and cannot do in art. At some point, when you understand why there are rules, you can choose whether to follow them or not. Jumping into any art, without regard to the way things work, is foolish, and people are going to tell you that. Get used to it. Okay, so you have an idea. How are you going to present it. Other people have been asking, "Why?" There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to shock people, but I have to say, without some kind of presention, I think if you showed me your effect, I might start giggling hysterically. So. . .flesh it out, bring it back, and we can all give you some feedback on that. I'm not trying to insult you, but you have to have more to work with. Mark
What would Wavy do?
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Stuart Hooper Special user Mithrandir 759 Posts |
So, Unilogo, you are out to shock, horrify, and insult people, and there is no reason/master plan/anything for this behavior? You just feel like doing it?
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Magickman Elite user St.Petersburg, Fl. 402 Posts |
Unilogo,
Do you mind if I ask how old you are? Do you know dead animals carry diease? Have you ever been sued? Would you really have people eat from a pan that held a dead animal? Just askin! Magickman
What man knows he calls Science
What he has yet to learn he calls Magick Both are real! _Tony Andruzzi_ |
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Moonlit Knight Regular user U.S. 113 Posts |
Warning - this posting may be considered sick and offensive. Please skip this posting if you have a vivid imagination and / or weak stomach. This is your warning !
Now, Unilogo - If you wish to elicit feelings of a negative nature, it is easy enough to do without using any form of magic. Ex. A child vomiting on the floor of a restaurant will stir up feelings of illness from others. A person attempting to clear the mess, bare-handed, will bring feelings of shock and / or disgust from the onlookers. If it is a food worker doing the removal in that way, and then starts to approach customers to take their orders or present their food without washing up, well - that's not only shocking and / or disgusting but insulting and offensive. How extreme do you wish to be and for what ends? Do you desire to be the Johnny Knoxville, Steve O or Tom Green of the magic set? Is this the sort of thing that you consider art? Is that what you consider entertainment? Is it not shock for the sake of shock? You could incorporate social context messages in the trick you described, not unlike the anti-smoking “TRUTH” ads, or an anti-abortion activist displaying images of an aborted fetus. But, even still, your trick is lacking. Who cares if the dead animal transforms into a cake. It’s a trick! Yes, some people would be grossed out but others may simply ask why, that is if they give any reaction at all. You stated “I would not use any endangered species just plain normal animals of the butcher shop...” I say why not? Using your logic, whether it’s butcher shop meat, un-cleaned road kill or an endangered species - it’s all the same, after all meat is meat, right? Why not just produce a big rotting owl and take a bite out of it, then offer it to others? Is that too “gross”? Is that too “insulting”? Is that too much of a “shock” for your audience to see or for you to do? (Note: a switch could be performed so that the chance of exposing yourself to any diseases would be lessened. However, you would not be entirely safe from the prospect of contracting something.) Or, hey, how about starting your show by offering your audience members bowls of rice served from your pan. After a couple of spoons of rice are served, then you cover the remainder of the rice in the pan and when you remove the lid, maggots are found where the rice was. Perhaps a few flies could fly out as you raise the lid? That would be shocking, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it also be disgusting, if not insulting, to the ones that accepted your offer and ate their bowls clean? After all, what's the big deal with a few maggots and flies. Many pictures of starving people seen have the starving ones with flies crawling on their food and on them, don’t they? The key questions here are - where do you draw the line for yourself, since you apparently do? Why are some things appropriate and others not for you to perform? And perhaps, most importantly, when does the “controversy” over you and / or your performance seen / experienced by your audience / victims over-shadow the message you wish to impart - in their minds? How are you going to strike a balance? These are questions you must ultimately answer for yourself! Remember, your decision will be one you must be able to live with - so, weigh the answers carefully. B.T.W. If anyone was wondering, I do not approve of entertainment that makes victims of the audience in part or in whole. This is my choice, all performers must decide what choices are right for themselves as well. Again, my apologies to anyone who, after reading the warning, decided to venture ahead and was offended or sickened by my words of response to Unilogo.
"Join the dance... Follow on! With a twist of the world we go."
- Genesis "Dancing With The Moonlit Knight" |
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
It was like watching a train wreck. Horrible to view....but I couldn't take my eyes away. Guess I'll see what's in the fridge!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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unilogo Veteran user Las Vegas , NV 359 Posts |
Everyone thanks for the responses even if well they did not make me feel good...
I guess this is why I came, to get some insight and I did. So thanks. To all the haters, smart people and everyone in between. I might even decide to make the poor stuff animal be dead then fill it with some fake guts and make it come back to life and comforting the audience inbetween the trick ..who knows. (the beautiful miracle of life:) )Im still thinking..... But whatevers I get where all you guys are coming from and appreciate your time typing the stuff....thanks to all. I guess the way to solve this is to try and well that I will do soon. Experiment a lot I guess..... Moonlit, magic man and life is not fun. Thanks to you guys specially, I realized some stuff now....thanks for the insight. Yeah I don't care about drawing a line (ever) and I guess comparison NEVER works either. Nothing is anything else ever. So yeah it's hard.... My choice is victims of the audience...but not the whole show...plus the disclaimer should make everyone that does not want to see it, not even come to the show. I just want to put my show...ok. For some people that might want to see it. well yeah thanks. This gave me some thought for a while so I'll leave now and think it through. guess we all learn in life...so yeah thanks and I'll go now. |
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Moonlit Knight Regular user U.S. 113 Posts |
Unilogo, I’m not sure if you were paraphrasing my thoughts or drawing a conclusion about how I perform when you stated “moonlit,magic man and life is not fun .” Now, I won’t pretend to answer for Magickman but as for me, I will state that I do not think the performance of magic is all moonbeams lollypops and rainbows. Life, the process of life (pleasure, pain, fear, joy, etc.) and death are powerful presentational subjects. There are a ton of ways one can bring about certain emotions and there are a myriad of subjects that can be covered in the process if they are handled correctly. Note: handling these subjects correctly does not mean slapping a smiley face on it but a well thought out presentation. A presentation that gives meaning and justification actions taken by the performer must be had not for the benefit performer but for the audience. This, in my opinion, must be greater than the “because he can” thought.
---- Warning - this next part of this posting may be considered sick and offensive. This is your warning ! ---- Now, onto another one of your statements, I quote “yeah I don't care about drawing a line(ever)...”. Well do you mean to say that you may go as far as throwing defecating on stage and throwing your excrement on your audience? Does this mean that you may physically attack your audience members beating them inflicting physical pain, lacerations and breaks? Does this mean that you would actually mutilate yourself on stage or perhaps actually kill a member of your audience? These actions are controversial and you wrote “Controversy will be there and frankly I do not care.” But more than controversial they are illegal but for one who doesn't draw a line why should that matter? Admittedly, what I presented within this post are extremes but some people of the 1970’s and 80’s underground Punk scene sought to make victims of themselves and their audience, even doing the things that I mentioned earlier in this post (most notably perhaps was GG Allin). It has been reported that years ago Iggy Pop would take a broken beer bottle and slice up his chest while performing. But this is not simply in the past some of these things survive today as the mantle of disgust has been passed down to others. Recently, the band “Hell on Earth” planed a suicide on stage as a political statement about euthanasia. The person who was to be “sacrificed” was a terminally ill member of a right-to-die group. B.T.W. It was stated that the band “Hell on Earth” is known for it's stage antics, which have included grinding up rats in a blender. You wrote, “I guess comparison NEVER works either. Nothing is anything else ever.so yeah its hard...”. Magic is the art of illusion no matter what form it takes. A faked disgusting action, mutilation or death is never like a simulation, is it? As a magician or a person using magic you seem to want to sicken, insult and disgust others but what happens when you are called on your tricks? I hate to break it to you but your ideas are not new. But, I ask, will you be able to live up to the image of one who does things for shock alone? How far will you go? When will you decide that you must abandon the tricks for true terroristic activities perpetrated upon your audience in the name of entertainment? Now, I am well aware that there is a small segment of people who want to view and / or participate in these things. Some view this sort of thing as entertainment -- I personally do not. Unfortunately, the rest of society will be dragged - perhaps slowly - into the downward spiral of the new “entertainment”. Just a few years ago many of the things seen as good or acceptable television entertainment today would have not been considered as such, let alone being allowed to air. So, I ask, is this a good thing? How much is too much? How far is too far? What will stop your audience from making you the victim of their expression? Hey, expression is, after all, expression . Entertainers and artists are not limited to being the only ones who can claim this justification. What if they consider their action as being art? What if they think they are showing you appreciation for you by doing things you find offensive, insulting, etc.? Not many people who travel this path of “entertainment” give any consideration to these question - will you? Don’t think for one moment that an audience who sees your show won’t try to top you at your show or give you better respect than what you offered them. Case in point, one time at punk shows, people would leave beaten and bloodied - not just the audience members - but sometimes band members, as well, due to the action / reaction of the audience. Some bands showed appreciation to the audience by spitting on them. Eventually, audiences at these shows started spitting and, in some cases, throwing bottles, animals (both dead and alive), food (sometimes rotten) and excrement at the performers they liked. In my album collection I have a copy of Bauhaus’s - “Nightime” recorded live at Guillford Civic Hall, Oct 18th 1982. The lead singer (Peter Murphy), at one point of the show, had to inform the audience that “Spitting is not a sign of appreciation...” It is of little consequence if you don’t care about ever drawing a line. That does not mean a line must not be drawn - else you may find yourself in the middle of something that you don‘t want. This does not mean your magic must be performed so that it is considered “safe” but it must be where you are in control of yourself and your audience so that the show is enjoyable and not one that has de-evolved into a riotous state. Again, my apologies to anyone who, after reading the warning, decided to venture ahead and was offended.
"Join the dance... Follow on! With a twist of the world we go."
- Genesis "Dancing With The Moonlit Knight" |
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
>No Bizarrist in their proper creative mind would be caught, (please excuse the pun?) "dead" with a dovepan in their programs.
Mr. Shiels and the late Mr. Cammeron would disagree, as would I. It depends on how it's used. I agree, though, that the skeletal 'routine' described in the original post doesn't inspire me. I'll leave it at that. Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
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Bill Fienning Special user 635 Posts |
I believe there is a misunderstanding on the part of "Unilogo" (and some others that have posted in this bizarre section) as to the bizarrist magic movement.
Bizarrists should not be confused with those interested in "geek" or "disgusting" magic. Those who started the movement presented magic as if it were real. It might be startling and impressive, but not disgusting. Even "The Wrath of Renfeld" (flies in the ears, nose and mouth) is played for comedy. It is, or should be, clear to the audience that the "flies" are really plastic imitations. Some of the current masters of bizarre, Christian Chelman, Borodin, Brother Shadow, Docc Hilford, etc., would never consider doing something that was truly disgusting. The bizarrist movement seeks to merge magic with storytelling to enhance the experience of both for the audience.
Bill Fienning
"It's More than Tricks" |
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