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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magical Accessories » » JSB or Ammar Topit (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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limhanchung
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I have read many posts regarding these two topits.
Is it true that the JSB topit relies on the whole costume rather than the jacket alone? Can anyone point out the other pros and cons of these two topits?

I am currently on a tight budget so I really can pick only one.
MJ Marrs
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The JSB topit has an addition which helps make it a bit more foolproof, but I've never bothered to have my dress shirts altered to accomodate this addition. The topit works just fine without it--although the idea that Jay came up with is very clever. As far as I know, the Ammar topit pattern is very similar to the JSB version, so you should be alright either way. I had topits installed in a couple of coats a while back when Jay was giving a class at the Magic Castle. I'm happy with the results. Good Luck.
limhanchung
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Must they be dress shirts? How about a T-shirt and sports jacket? Will it work well with the JSB topit?
MJ Marrs
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Any type of shirt should work fine. The addition to the JSB topit can attach to any type of shirt. In fact, the topit works just fine without the extra attachment.
zombieboy
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Yes, it's true. I have used the JSB topit to GREAT effect, and it is well worth it.
Werner G. Seitz
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A few thoughts..

I've used the Topit ever since way back in around 1965 and did an article in a german magasin around 1970 with an intensive description of how to insert it and some examples of how to use it..that article was illustrated by 21 fotos.. the more or less traditional design was used.

Later on ,Michael Ammar came up with his great design, the improvment re access via the coatpocket and the backdrop..great ideas!!

I used it from the moment it got public.., did my own sewings and insertion..
It -of course- worked well.

Now, having been out of magic for around 10 years and taking magic up again, I followed what's new here also re the Topit.

TBH, I don't know the JSB design, but most ppl say it is more or lesssimilar to Michael Ammars..

The reason for this posting is, that there is one thing that was missing in f.ex. the Michael Ammar design and I suppose in all others that came up..

I had it mentioned in that article I mentioned, but never have seen it anywhere else mentioned..

I'll -if and when I find time- try to play a bit with the Topit and try to incorporate that in the Ammar design..

What I'm thinking off here, is that a *bag* has to be formed that almost goes to the edge of your c**t, when the Topit is in place..this back ensures, that even a too short throw will enter the Topit safely and it also even ensures a space between your body and the jac**t,m so you have a safe opening, with leaning forward too much, or raising your shoulder or whatever tricks are in use to get access..it is also more or less a question of that the material used for the Topit -and able to form a such bag- is not too soft, but neither stiff -of course..

Now this bag thing might sound cryptical, but it simply means the Topitopening should NOT lay more or less flat to your body, but the space between the jac***t and your body is ensured by that bag..

In the Michael Ammar design it lays too flat on the body, but this might also be the material I used, I still think it is the design (no critic-it works still well, for me it is simply too loose..

The overthrow then hasn't to be that much of a problem, also it is good to have that overthrow stop, but one simply can get a safer throw when that *bag* is formed..diff. to explain without pictures..

Of course, that bag shouldn't go that far out, so it is visible, but should be around 7 cm's or so from the edge of the ja***ets front.

I'll play a bit one of these days and se what I can come up with re a combination of MA's fine design adding that *bag*-feature...
Nothing sensational, just a practical feature to make it safer..

I also would tell anybody to give the Topitdesigns a renewed think -I will do so too- as somebody might come up with further improvments..don't just take what's out as being perfect -even if it works satisfactory for you and the *designer* - try to incorporate your own toughts on it..

This is by no means any critic re what's existing..actually I was impressed and happy re the MA design and had no probs with it, but I'm sure it can be a bit improved and the use made safer..

Think about it..I will...

PS.
Ger Cooper had a feature in his Topit, making it possible to *steal* f.ex. a large coin from the bottom edge of his coat/topit, he explained it in his lectures, but that was aimed at the routine he did use the Topit for..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Kent Wong
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Wow!! Temendous info on the topit Werner. I was wondering, though, doesn't the "tuck in" feature of the Ammar Topit help to encourage more of an opening? I was also thinking that, if you used some of the same stiff material that is used in shirt collars, you could cause the side of the topit closest to your body to "buckle" outwards. That may help to encourage the topit to stay open as suggested.
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Werner G. Seitz
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Today I digged out some of my old jackets well knowing I couldn't fit them anymore Smile

The Ammar design in any of them didn't give that extra *bag*-opening needed, on the contrary and the tuck in flap didn't make this any better.

My ideas (I hope I don't reinvent the JSB-design, I don't know it) so far, where the following.

First off all, starting where the tuck-in flap is, the material BEFORE the flap, eg. in front of it which forms the opening is in the Ammar design only around 7 cm.

Leave the flap where it is, but double these 7cm to around 14 cm..

Now, of course these extra 7 cm we now have are used to form that extra bag I mentioned, meaning sew the frontedge on approx. where you earlier did sew it, but you now have extra material that gives an opening that goes further in the direction of your coats left frontedge, but not that much so the *bag* can be seen.

Next thing is to start the bagddrop/stop a bit higher up at the backside of the Topit, almost under the armpit, but the current position is almost OK.

Now, the important thing is, that from the top point of the backdrop, a (let's say for now) STRAIGHT line (might have to get arced/curved a bit in praxis) has to go to that front vertical edge of the TOPIT, that edge we just enlarged with 7 cm.

This is done in a way, so that the front opening of the TOPIT gets a little lower then it is in the Ammar design, as low as practical possible..today the front edge of the TOPIT is about 18cm, make these less, BUT lowering the bottom edge of the TOPIT (eg. lowering the whole Topit when inserting it) -which also should be done- might be sufficient, so maybe it is not needed to make those 18 cm less.

It depends on your hight/body.

In any case SHOULD the front opening be lower then in the original design.

All this depends also on *the swing* of your arm, if you understand what I mean..one should never have a need to a *high* throw, but a natural swing..

Mentioning that straight line from the top of the backdrop to the frontedge, means that the horizontal frontedge that orginally where 7 cm wide and that we now have enlarged to appr. 14 cm is GONE as it now is part of that straight (curved) line from the armpit to the frontend.

Of course it is impossible to describe all this without a drwaing, but probably some might get the idea..

All the dimensions mentioned are by now not yet tested and prooven, they are just speculations and thoughts..

What the most important thing is, is that this straight line mentioned going from the armpit to the frontedge should lay as firm at your body/shirt when the tug-in flap is in place, that's the secret..nothing can pass between your shirt and that straight line of material..it simply will be catched in the T. no matter how careless the throw is..there is no possibility of failure.
It (an article) will end up where we want it to end up..

The bagformed entrance that also gives a slight distance and *opening* so the jac**t isn't close to the body, ensures also a carefless throw -not intentionally careless, but we all know it happens we fail, only Michael Ammar doesn't Smile - will enter where it should..
The tuck-in flap maybe has also to be a bit redesigned...

BUT, what you mentioned re stiff-collar-material is not what I had in mind..it shouldn't be that stiff, just slightly more stiff then normal lining is..

Make your own thoughts re this, maybe you get some ideas..
I'll continue thinking about this.. Smile

And..as mentioned..I hope I haven't reinvented JSBs design..honest to godness I don't know it..

Once again, 2 things are important.

There should be absolutely no way of a *misthrow*, as the diagonal -from the armpit- going lining should be firm on your body and the extra material mentioned forming kind of a bag (opening closer to the front of your jacketedge) should not only ensure easier access, access further to the front, but also a larger opening due to the elasticy of that bulk that bag will give..

Again, hard to explain what I mean with this bag-thing, I hope you can figure it out..

PS. I forgot to mention re that stiff material used in shirt collars you mentioned actually was used way back to *open* a TOPIT, it was used in older days IIRC by Conradi-Horster in Germany, if I am not mistaken they did call the Topit for *Blitzophon*..and I also had it in consideration but think and hope it is not needed, but you where actually on the right pass re taking it in use..in this case it had to be formed like an arc, almost/more like half of a circle, a little more on the flad side of a circle, lets say half of an elipse..

I think -as my older Topit did work and form a such bag just by use of another material/lining- it is not needed, but one can have it in mind sewing something similar inside the front top seam..we'll se..
Sorry for the long posting.. Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Kent Wong
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Thanks for the great ideas!! I'm fairly new to the topit myself and I find that getting it to open has always been my biggest challenge. This will help a lot.
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Werner G. Seitz
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Just got another idea..

As I mentioned, it is essential that the diagonal lining of the TOPIT that goes to the armpit is laying on firmly at your shirt/body..

Now this might also get accomplished by sewing a stainless-stel ř1 mm rod/thread in the seam of that diagonal lining, it could be slightly bent to ensure it firmly is pressing on your body..the ends of this rod/thread had to be formed like an *eye*, eg. a round ř5 mm or so thingy and sewn on, to ensure that that bent one is applying doesn't *turn* into a wrong direction..

This all is only theory, but probably a possible safety-solution..I'm not up to make that thingy too technical, just safe..

Normally, when tucking firmly on that lining before inserting that tuck-in flap into the trousers, one has ensured that it lays straight on the body, but as you might have experienced, tucking too hard will make it visible from the outside, eg. ones coat is looking strange from the side..it has always be a *balance* re how much one can straighten that lining..maybe that stainless-steel rod is a solution..actually I think of stainless steel spring material, the one they use to make springs..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2004-09-13 15:36, magicman845 wrote:
Thanks for the great ideas!! I'm fairly new to the topit myself and I find that getting it to open has always been my biggest challenge. This will help a lot.
Opening it, is normally done by leaning the top part of the body -from the waist upwards- forward, then your ja**et will swing open.
Another classical solution is to raise your left arm so the shoulder will raise..of course this has to be built in your routine..f-.ex. the classical vanishing lighter is a good example, whilst the left goes up (and hereby doing what I outlined above), with a cigarette to the mouth, the right holding a lighter drops slightly and moves up to light the cigarette..during that action the lighter is delivered in the TOPIT..a brief description, but that is the basic..
Another example is when doing the stack of coins, or even a single coin under the upside down insert of a matchbox..

Matchbox is lying on the back of your left hand, coin thereunder..that again ensures your left shoulder is raised and the access to the Topit is granted..
You now snap your right fingers aso., lift the matchbox (with the coin pinched) and it is gone..drop the right slightly and deliver the coin inside the drawer to the Topit during an upward swing to show the matchboxs inside empty..
Just brief examples on how to enlargen the opening of the TOPIT during a routine..

Study Ammars work on the Topit..he has a lot of great examples, but the above mentioned ensure enlargement of the *opening* in a natural way..not my ideas, but mostly Patrik Pages..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
what the...?
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Cellini had an awesome topit!
The great Sandwich!
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2004-09-13 16:21, what the...? wrote:
Cellini had an awesome topit!
I've seen it..it suits his work..

The way he does attach it is good and fast, though it doesn't ensure - I think - there is no space between body and lining.

But no doubt, he can handle it and has no probs..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
what the...?
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I have never worked much with topits, that's the only one I've really seen. I was wanting to make one. Who's would you recomend?

Brian
The great Sandwich!
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2004-09-13 16:50, what the...? wrote:
I have never worked much with topits, that's the only one I've really seen. I was wanting to make one. Who's would you recomend?

Brian
Ammars or Jay Scott Berrys, though I never have seen JSBs, but the reports are good and varying, both are recommended by those using them..
I like to make my own as I've done so earlier, but just have ordered the JSB DVD, just to be sure not to reinventing the wheel.. Smile
I hate wasting my time ...

BTW, a nice article by Bob Fitch, a well known user of the TOPIT can be read at:
http://www.fitchmagic.com/Topit.htm#topittop
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Werner G. Seitz
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For the record..Just crossed my mind it wasn't Conradi-Horster that put out *Blitzophon*, it was Janos Bartl from Hamburg/Germany at the Jungfernstieg, a very well known german dealer in those days, that did it..
His wifes name was Rosa..yes..what a memory.. Smile

I was there as a very young man buying my very first trick..the *razorblades*.. Smile Smile

Those where they days my friend, I wish..... (you know the sound.. Smile )
Have a nice day alltogether...
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Pete Biro
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I made one years ago with a bottom that would open/close so you could steal items back to reproduce.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2004-09-16 22:27, Pete Biro wrote:
I made one years ago with a bottom that would open/close so you could steal items back to reproduce.
I'm a bit in doubt re this...that method is good for stage use, but probably can be used at restaurant work too..yes..why not..
OTOH, I well remember Ken Brookes advice re the safest place to store stuff and *load* from, are ones own trousers pockets ( remember Pat Page's use of this when doing the misers dream and beforehand throwing an invisble coin at a spec.. *Catch it and keep it, place it in your pocket* or something like this..,and at the same time loading a bunch of coins from ones own pocket during that *guesture*.. but this -of course- has nothing to do with the Topit..

I just can't make up my mind re this..Ger Cooper did and used what you said..is your system the same as his?
I suppose, you know his solution?
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Werner G. Seitz
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Ok..final thoughts on the TOPIT so far, to make access much easier then when using the hidthero available ones..
They ARE good enough, but...

It is easy to explain what I have in mind..
Just got the JSB DVD re his version..

What I would improve further- apart from I would like to skip the V***o and replace it with a stainless steel wire sewn inside that same portion going up to under the armpit (the backdrop).

A lenght of 1 mm ř stainless steel wire, the ends formed as *loops* with a diam of approx. 8 mm.

Now, these loops would be inserted in smal pockets at each outer end of that lining going to the armpit, so the steelwire can be removed when the jacket is going to the cleaner..

Make the distance between the smal pockets a such, that there is a slight tension on that steelwire..it should also go through a seam/hem all its length, so it will stay in place..figure out what I mean Smile

This steelwire shoiuld do the same, what the V****o does in JSB's design, but the jacket now can be moved from suit to suit and no attachment to ones s***t is needed.

MORE IMPORTANT..and this is what I meant, it now was easy to explain what alternations should be made..after seing the JSB solution..

I did mention this *bag* earlier..and this is exactly the same, JSB does do at the BOTTOM of his TOPIT.

Se his DVD, and do the same at the FRONT, as he does at the bottom.
This will give the extra *slag* needed to form a bag ensuring a larger entrance/opening to the TOPIT and so to give easier access..
That's it..

Try it- hopefully you understand what I mean..

I'll do that design one of these days..it is not yet tested, but it will get...

Good luck..maybe you come up with further improvments, but I think what's mentioned does the job..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
kregg
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Of all the Topits, the one that stands out as really neat was Cellini's.
Get the info from his lecture material. If I recall there was none of the ridiculous tucking material into ones trousers.
POOF!
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