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White Rodent New user Australia 84 Posts |
Yes. An amateur magician. Amateur being the operative word. Not that I object to amateur magicians of course and some of them have written very good books. But they are generally not experts on presentation and showmanship in the same way that a professional is. And I am always dubious about "theatrical directors". They should stick to directing theatre and keep away from magic. I have great scepticism in the commonly held belief that professional actors make good magicians. I have not seen a good one yet.
I consider the book to be mostly padding. The man admitted to Lewis Ganson that he never performed. If I want advice on performing I prefer to go to a performer to get it. You may also be interested to know that he wrote a book on cartooning. There. That is your titbit of education for the day. |
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Horatio New user 85 Posts |
So did Lewis Ganson not speak very highly of him then? It's a shame that Nelms isn't still around to defend his good name.
Yes, I saw the book on "Thinking with a Pencil" that Nelms wrote - 11 five star reviews on amazon.com. Can't be bad eh? They're selling new copies at $197, so it looks like they're collector's items. He seems to have been a man of many talents! I can't say that I've ever had occasion to be distrustful of theatrical directors, White Rodent, but perhaps they have a reputation that I have yet to hear much about... Then again, generalisations can often be misleading. In Nelms' case, he does seem to have the approval of many magicians such as some in this thread. Also, Darwin Ortiz mentions him in Strong Magic (pg 27) when he differentiates between his own preference for having dramatic presentation enhance the magic rather than the other way around (as he is critical of Nelms for preferring in Magic and Showmanship, which he describes as "otherwise outstanding"). If Ortiz considers much of the advice in Nelms' book to be outstanding, then clearly the advice on performing stands up to the scrutiny of a very experienced and analytical performer. Of course, just because advice suits one person, though, doesn't mean that it will suit everyone. |
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White Rodent New user Australia 84 Posts |
Oh, I fully concede that I am in the minority. My opinions are often at variance with others. I am a very contrary person and just because something is standard wisdom it doesn't necessarily mean that I am going to go along with it. Still, all I can really say in my defence is that my opinions are based on vast experience. I agree that vast experience does not necessarily mean that I am right but at least I am not basing my views on theoretical speculation.
Lewis Ganson was a gentleman and never said a derogatory thing about anybody from what I gather. No. It was a mention by Henry Hay (who fully endorsed the Nelms theories) that Henning had written to Ganson admitting that he didn't really perform very much. Since you mention Darwin Ortiz I will say that I fully endorse his Strong Magic book which I far prefer to the Nelms tome. His advice on hecklers I do believe is faulty but apart from that I think the book is quite excellent. Alas poor Darwin is not prone to practice what he preaches and I personally do not find him a scintillating performer but as you can tell I am a very critical person. But again my criticism and cynicism is based on experience. I am afraid "dramatic presentation" too often means "long winded and pretentious". I have seen many theatrically trained magicians and I find that they project too loudly, perform AT the audience rather than to or with them, and come across as very artificial and as if they are reciting a play. Their patter is too scripted and not loose enough. And they talk far too much. For example I have seen famed actor Orson Welles do magic on late night television chat shows and he bored the hell out of me. So no. I am not over keen on theatrical directors. I have seen two of these directors who are highly regarded giving lectures to magicians and I thought they they would have been better off staying at home. Again bias and cynicism on my part but based on experience. I rather like the advice given in the Royal Road to Card Magic that magicians are often too verbose and that this can become tiresome. I think they would do a lot better if they were to cut the constant yapping and get down to the meat of the thing. Too much flannel is a very bad thing. I am not saying that a performer should be a man of few words like David Blaine although I can appreciate him but he shouldn't talk interminably either. You can over present as well as under present. I remember the awful advice about "silent scripts" in the Nelms book. After that I couldn't read any more of it. I prefer to perform like a human being rather than a robot. As you can see I go against the grain but I am sure you would rather me be honest that state what I do not believe to be true. |
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Count Lustig Elite user 456 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-05-25 19:17, White Rodent wrote: Hey, Mark Lewis, it's good to see you back. |
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White Rodent New user Australia 84 Posts |
You are mistaken. My name is Kevin McLean from Australia.
My identity is not important but I believe my message is. But while I am here I should highly recommend to Horatio that he study the back section of Expert Card Technique which is the big chapter on presentation. Especially read the first few pages. That will do you 100 times more good than the Henning Nelms drive which was untested even by Nelms himself. |
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Count Lustig Elite user 456 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-05-25 22:29, White Rodent wrote: Whatever you say Mark. |
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White Rodent New user Australia 84 Posts |
I would also highly recommend "Our Magic" by Nevil Maskelyne. Written in 1910 but most of it is valid to this day.
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vampiro Loyal user Atlanta 240 Posts |
I agree that if good entertaining means being longwinded and loud, and not being open to audience opinions and interaction,
then whatever the source, it is completely WRONG. What we often miss as magicians, in getting our moves and deceptions right in a trick, is that people all have dreams and wishes and desires. If we can tie in our trick with one of these themes, we go A LONG WAY TO INTERESTING THE SPECTATOR. Of course I am assuming that the magician, if it is close-up, for instance, would be willing to ask a question or two to involve the spectator, with some of their wildest wishes and dreams. Think about it--the most interesting way to perform is to tie in our tricks somehow, even if the link is indirect, with the dreams and wishes of people. I think this is what is often totally missed in these actor/monologue/"entertainment" type of books. If I am off, let me know. we are all learning together. thanks for your contributions. |
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White Rodent New user Australia 84 Posts |
Vampiro. Certainly your idea is one way of entertaining people if it suits your style. However, it may not suit everyone. I am not particularly interested in other people's wildest dreams. I have my own troubles. But yes. If that is something you want to do and it works for you then go for it. I just want to entertain the people and I have my own way to do it. I do, however agree about asking spectators the odd question or two to involve them. In fact I think it is essential to do this when performing close up magic. I do it all the time although not about their wishes and dreams. If I personally do that then they will be wishing and dreaming that I would hurry up and finish. If someone asked me about my wishes and dreams I would he highly tempted to tell them to mind their own business.
Still, I know what you are getting at and I am not objecting to it. I personally think the key to good presentation is to be an interesting character. They will forgive you anything if you can achieve that. You can even do your tricks wrong and they will still love you. That is because the tricks are not important. They really don't mean a thing by themselves. It is the MAN not the trick that is the important thing. |
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NateReeves New user 97 Posts |
Jay Sankey really hits the nail on the head for me when it comes to performing. His philosophies on presentation and "key lines" strategy are what I live by. I not only use them in magic, but also in any situation in which I have to give a presentation (it's not for everyone, some people may not be great improvisers and need a strict script). I would recommend his book "Beyond Secrets." It's also fully printed in "Definitive Sankey."
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Horatio New user 85 Posts |
Thanks for the book recommendations. It's interesting that The Magic Café doesn't seem to have a single section for showmanship, but different aspects are covered in different places. I guess it relates to many different areas.
White Rodent. If you gave up on the book when Nelms started talking about silent script ideas, then that would mean that you stopped before pg 60 of a 130 page book. Not an unreasonable thing to do, but it surprises me that you want to condemn it so strongly when you didn't read so many chapters (covering devices, controlling attention, managing changes in interest levels, how to use the stage etc), which cover other aspects of performing. I understand that you dislike one particular aspect of what Nelms has to say, but there are many more ideas that he shares in the book beyond this one. |
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Horatio New user 85 Posts |
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On 2013-05-26 02:58, vampiro wrote: To be fair to Nelms, I'm pretty sure that he in no way intended to persuade performers to be longwinded, loud or ignorant of how the audience is interacting with a routine. This sounds very much like White Rodent's characterisation of Nelms' advice, but it is not one which I recognise from actually reading the whole book. In particular, for impromptu performances, Nelms seems to recommend raising provocative topics for conversation to arouse interest in the soon-to-be 'spectators'. This ought to leave plenty of scope for the patter to be adapted to any wishes, dreams or other thoughts that are shared during the process. I have to say, Vampiro, that my initial response to the idea of a performer asking me directly about my dreams and wishes was similar to White Rodent's - it could be felt to be intrusive by some. On the other hand, I can see that a more subtle approach might give just enough information to really personalise a routine. Do you have some examples of how this might be done? Nelms certainly had this sense of meaning in mind when he gave his 'sandwich miracle' example on page 6. |
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