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Jay Fortune New user 14 Posts |
Ok, Ok, Ok. So we are still thinking about the 'Is Magic Art?' question. Good, that means that a few more magicians are thinking seriously about their magic and it's performance. Surely that can only be for the better?
So I'd like to know your opinion on this one: Does magic have to have a meaning? When we make the coin vanish and reappear does it have to be wrapped in a story of life, death and rebirth? Or can the coin simply just vanish for trick's sake? Oh well. Here we go again...
Jay Fortune
Co-Host of Radio Magic FREE magic entertainment every Monday at 8pm (GMT), 12 noon (Pacific) www.radiomagic.co.uk for further info! |
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meilechl Special user 657 Posts |
I think that we sometimes forget how strong the actual effect can be without coating it with comedy/storyline. Paul Harris expresses this opinion in an essay in one of his AOA books (at the begining). Although a routine is much enhanced by having the correct patter to go along, sometimes , imho, you should just amaze. Suspend the rules of nature as the spectator knows it. No jokes or byplay. Just, "What the ****?!"
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
It helps when there is some idea or image implied in the work. Something for them to take away, and perhaps return for.
There is always a message. It's your message. You can't NOT communicate your message. Just what message do you want to give them? Does the message have to be great or deep? I say 'no'. Can be anything they could like on some level. It's your message. What would you like it to be?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Thanks Jon.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Mike Robbins Elite user Anchorage, Alaska 447 Posts |
I agree with Jon. There is always a message, whether explicitly communicated or implied. Unfortunately, the message is sometimes "Look at me. I can do this. You can't."
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
Shakespeare |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Yup, what Jonathan said...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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partyboy Regular user Montréal, Québec 142 Posts |
Magic has to have a meaning yes. Tricks do not though.
Though by meaning I don't mean like birth and death of things while doing a coin vanish and reapperance because that is just BS for me (I don't have problem with people doing this, as long as this is what you want to do). By meaning I mean to give a reason for your spectators to care about what you are doing. For a much much more detailed work on this, I would suggest you to read Absolute Magic by Derren Brown. Marvellous book! Renaud
"communicate your humanity, 'cause that's what we all are after all : human!"
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MISTER E New user 46 Posts |
Magic IS an Art. Just as Art IS Magic.
Does Magic have to have meaning? That depends on where you stand. Now, consider this... is it plausible that Magic IS meaning? Just an esoteric thought. -E |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Magic is one of the Arts, but that does not mean that ALL magic is art, any more than ALL pieces of canvas that have paint smeared on them are art.
Some of them are dropcloths. But when magic is performed by an artist, it is art.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
The medium is the message...
The magic is the meaning. Magic has its own meaning, and finding out what the meaning of each trick is is the secret to presenting it well. Meaning should not be added to magic, like ketchup. It should be discovered in the trick itself. Each trick can have a different level and kind of meaning. Each trick in a routine can have a different kind of play and interchange witht the spectators. Magic is always theater, but not always story theater. It can be a theater of role play, and games. Every time a spectator picks a card it is a theatrical event, with the magician as protaganist and the spectator as antaganist. How will it come out? What difficulties will have to be sermounted? There doesn't have to be a story added on. The trick creates its own story. That's why I always had a problem with gospel magic, and tradeshow magic. There the meaning is added on, and magic is just a means to an end, and not an end in itself. You don't have to tell myths--the stories about the trickster, the coyote, or the clever rabbit--to give meaning and depth to magic. We are the coyotes, and audiences will tell stories about us. Our tricks are their stories, and they love to tell about this guy they saw once who put a card on the ceiling. The stories they will tell about us are the gifts that we give to them. |
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Mike Wild Inner circle NY, PA, TX, MA, FL, NC 1290 Posts |
Everything has meaning, whether intended or not, confused or crystal clear, everything we do has some kind of meaning to it.
What's the point of doing anything that's meaningless? Anyone who performs magic does it for some reason, whether to entertain, or to fool/deceive people, or any one of a hundred other reasons. Anything done for a reason has meaning at some level. Whether or not we understand our meaning and are capable and able to convey it in an effective manner is the real question. Best, Mike |
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jrbobik Regular user Philadelphia 104 Posts |
I think that even when you just make the coin disappear or a bill float in your hand it still holds a meaning. Maybe not to the magician but to the audience. You have just done something that is normally against thier beliefs of how the world works. You have caused them to think and try to understand what just happen. So there in lies the meaning to me.
John B
"No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted"
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EvanSparts Veteran user Michigan 333 Posts |
I think the magic needs frame work but it dosent always need patter, or a story. I guess the meaning comes from what the people percive, and what you as the peformer do rather its wraped in a story or done with a stare.
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Jason234 New user 52 Posts |
I think it would be a good thing to present the trick to the spectator so that they can interpret their own meaning. For example, like a good novelist - they don't try to tell you what the book means, they just offer it up for you. Magic can be the same.
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Frank Tougas Inner circle Minneapolis, MN 1712 Posts |
Ah another philosophical exercise. Yes magic has meaning it means I have a great lifelong hobby, it means I have the ability to earn some extra money should I need it or an entire living if I so choose. It means that as a child it helped to hide my shyness and as an adult it helps to break the ice. As a consumer it means I can be a glutton for punishment spending big money and getting questionable stuff in return. It means I can be on this message board and interact with a whole lot of decent and very facinating individuals. It means "I can know something that you can't Naner Naner". Magic has a lot of meaning(s) for me.
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Meaning happens in the mind. Everyone gets to make their own meanings. What meaning would you like your audience to construe from your works?
"Yes that was a very nice coin trick, I just don't see how it argues for one's ability to both know and do at the same time".
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dan LeFay Inner circle Holland 1371 Posts |
Whit, that was a very interesting post. It has kept me thinking for w while.
Thanks!
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths, that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Neil Gaiman |
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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
One modern definition of "myth" is this: "narrative and dramatic enactments of people's perceptions of the deepest truths." I would add that magical effects tap into people's imaginations in a mythic way too! A magical effect can be mythic and meaningful, as Whit Haydn argues above, without a tacking some kind of superficial story or symbolism onto the effect. As he says, perhaps we can tap the effect itself or the performance itself for a more primordial meaning.
People have a sense of what a magician is from Walt Disney and Tolkien and Las Vegas stage shows. There is a collective consciousness, maybe subconsiousness that has prepared people in advance to tune into a magic performance. The magician is an Archtype, both ancient and modern. Even someone like Harry Anderson's character somehow taps into our mythis sensibility, in my opinion. Seeing things that defy the laws of nature is an archetypal experience, and there is something there that might be called meaning. I think there are some great magic effects with story-lines, usually the props are almost literally a part of that story. In other words, the props do not symbolize other things. My favorite examples are Color Monte (replaying a gambling experience), Professor's Nightmare (re-enacting a dream), Invisible Deck (Imaginary role play). These are classic ways to find drama, story, meaning and myth in magic without just tacking it on in a hokey way. As in these examples, the "meaning" need not be heavy-handed. Jung felt that common folklore like Batman comic books, for example, hit a more mythic vein than some high art and literature. Just some ramblings that I hope will strike a chord with someone else... alleycat
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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thegospelmagicman New user 73 Posts |
Magic without words or meaning seems senseless. When presenting a magic show using Gospel Magic the MESSAGE of the Gospel becomes of utmost inportance.
John thegospelmagicman |
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Dan LeFay Inner circle Holland 1371 Posts |
Can anything BE without meaning?
If we can not see or recognise meaning in something does this automaticly imply that there IS no meaning in it?
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths, that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Neil Gaiman |
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