Hi Colin.
This whole thing must be really annoying!

Particularly when some people don't seem to care about the issue at all!

I hope this all works out for you.

:)

I know I am not following the thread here but I would like to ask a question. I cannot ask it on the 'Genii' forum as I have been 'kicked off and barred. I apparently ask to many awkward questions. The reason I ask them is because I get e.mails from people with some of the answers, but I am told not to paste or post them, so I ask the same questions in public for them to re-answer but before they can, Richard deletes them or ends the topic. Each time I ask him why, I get a reply full of abuse.
Words like 'Pathetic'and'Juvenile'. Sometimes all in that same order. I have never met him, I have never called him anything, but I haven't. I could have done, but I haven't.
So, can anyone answer this. Richard Kaufman states that he cannot refuse adverts from Penguin 'because the magazine needs the revenue'. He cannot 'police' advertiser's and their effects. Fair enough. So if I wanted to place, say, a two page full colour advert for toys would he refuse? Has he got he right to prevent me from 'fair trade'? Well, yes I would have thought so, as toys have got no place in a 'magic' magazine. So, if he respects 'magic' as much as he professes and dosn't agree with their ethics, (or lack of) why let a self confessed 'knock -off' merchant/businessman place adverts for his type of wares? Surely they have no 'rightful' place in magic magazine also?

Colin, I suppose the answer could be given from scripture -- but it's much funnier when paraphrased from a Star Trek movie:

"The needs of the money outweigh the needs of the few."

Isn't there something you can steal from Penguin in retaliation? Market that and advertise it.That should soon get their attention.
Anyway that is what I would do in a nanosecond.
I got this idea from Harry Stanley (who claimed that he never did it himself). He stated that the rule was "if they steal one of yours steal three of theirs in retaliation"
Cheaper than sueing them anyway.

I won't do as you suggest as I am not a thief. I am not in this for the money. I have recently refused to supply Magic City with their last order of 'Lifesavers'.
I just wanted to find a way to stop the rip-off merchants from getting away with it. Again.
Just because 'this sort of thing has gone on for a humdred years' dosen't mean it has to continue for another hundred does it? If you have a web-site how do you get people to look at it? Ans. You still have to advertise the fact that 'it's' there in a place where your potential customers already look. If they were not allowed to advertise in the mags, far less people would know it existed. Simple. Then maybe, when the 'magic' world had cleaned up it's act and instilled a few advertising rules, Penguin etc. would only sell effects that were legally theirs to sell. Anyone with something 'new' they wished to sell, no matter how simple it was to copy, could do so without fear of it being stolen and instantly sold on a 'global scale'. I know we would see more new items on the market. That is surely the way forward. Patents are simply useless for the majority of effects, as when you get your 'Patent' it is published by the patent office on the internet for all to see, method, working and necessary 'Gaffs'.
If I wanted to steal from Penguin, which effects would I steal? I would only be stealing from someone else like myself as I cannot imagine 'Maxwell Murphy' or anyone associated with Penguin has had an original idea of their own. Ever.
Now, I am being driven close to insanity by the mundane pointlessness of it all and will finish by simply saying 'if things don't alter, they will stay the same'. So, please no more private mail asking me to 'fill in the gaps'about Penguin, Magic City etc. I can't. If you really need to fill in the gaps
contact any or all of them yourselves.Good luck.

Hi Colin
I fear it's a case of "Big Bad Boy" having deeper pockets, they can risk that even if they do rip off an item the inventor probably cannot afford to challenge it legally, and if they do, they have deeper pockets to drag it on and on and on and on, you get my drift.

I e-mailed penguin and requested to be removed from their e-mail list. I got a reply saying it had been done but then they went into a sales pitch about upcomming new products, check out our site etc etc, then two days later another e-mail from them telling me about their latest offers etc, Unbelieveable!?!

Nope, very believable, and Thank you for your support.
You can use that line if you wish though I shudder to to think why you would want to....

How can I have backed out of a deal I knew nothing about? I suggest you read a bit more than you have done. Your earlier quote about 'omg have you just given the secret away for nothing' Come on. The trick is about linking two objects. The 'gimmick' involved has been exposed from day one in reviews, refered to many times on this and other forums. So lets spell it out to you. Two objects... there's a 'gimmick involved'...yes.. Are you following?....Maybe one of the ojects isn't real????
mmmmmmmm... think about it..... penny dropped yet?
AND as I said before I have no argument with the others about them selling a rip off of my effect, the way magic works today is, if you release an effect and it is good enough it will get copied. That is something we, as inventors, have to accept. My grudge with Penguin is that they used my name without my permission and for a while continued to do so and then claimed to have paid me for it. I have received nothing. ask Gerald at magic city if he ever received the check that 'Maxwell' states he posted to them.
The Lifesaver/magic mints episode is over for my part. I am 'flogging a dead horse'. I just think we could do better. We obviously won't, but I thought we could. Please post on here where you have got you last piece of 'information' from.

Yes, Penguinites, please ask Magic City about that "infamous check" and while you are at it ask Penguin to present proof of same. To date they have not, nor would it appear they have any intention (or ability) to attempt to. Draw your own conclusions but first on the hit parade is "IT DOESN'T EXIST!".

Gee, was it all just more smoke and mirrors on the part of Penguin. I am concerned that is the case. Only they can prove otherwise but given their track record I'd say it is highly unlikely any such check ever existed.

Any "deal" was struck with people who had no authority, that is admitted by Penguin, or should I say, by their ignorance, because if they thought a distributor had the right to deal on behalf of an inventor, well they need to close up the business and go back to business school.

By what right do you procalim that Penguin had Colin's permission? Is it by the heresay of Penguin that they sent a check which they have not produced and which Magic City has told Colin they never saw? History proves that Penguin has backed down from the heresay which they swore to in the past, so why the sudden delusion of faith?

I say let Penguin belly up to the bar. Bring some proof to the table. There are several "mock notables" on the internet running around saying they know more than others, yet the "more" they know they can not/will not share. How convenient. How convenient to relax in the comfort of being dupe by the tuxedoed one. History will bear out who is right and wrong. It may be quietly, but it will be borne out.

Invisible "evidence" is as invalid as it is invisible. Until someone steps up to the table with physical proof otherwise, I am going to let Penguin's history of inpropriety speak for itself for now. Maybe you can't teach an old penguin new tricks.

Cheers,

Tom

I do believe that it would financially benefit some magicians if they got a patent before going to market. It would also provide advertisers a legal reason to turn manufacturers away without fear of being sued. Advertisers have been sued for turning clients away while accepting other clients. Since magician's ethics aren’t legally binding, advertisers find themselves between a rock and a hard place.

But, as pointed out, many creators are not in it for the money.

Also, a patent is a major obstacle for many. It’s not that expensive to obtain a patent, but it does cost something. If a magician has a limited market, or he or she wishes to limit his market, then a patent isn’t a viable option. There’s also the issue that a patent requires that the secret is made public. Some creators don’t want to release the secret and that’s their right. This could also greatly reduce the market for a product, as many will just use the patent to produce the item instead of purchasing it. Lastly, patents eventually expire.

But I see the main difference between items in industry and magic creations is that these latter items/ideas are performance pieces, and they require the permission of the creator to perform them. I have no problem with industry copying anything that’s not patented if it’s not related to a performance piece. I’m not running an original IBM PC here (and IBM didn’t even make the first public personal computer anyway), and I purchase the least expensive tissues I can find that meet my quality standards. But these are not secret items nor are they performance pieces.

Another issue is that many of the customers who purchase from unethical outfits are not even aware of these ethical issues. They regard magic items the way they regard items in industry. I’m not so naïve I think that education would completely solve the problem, but every bit would help. How to reach and educate this market segment is a real challenge. This topic is one such avenue, but it’s not enough.

"There is nothing further to say unless Penguin wishes to back up their claims. Until that time I have better things to do than argue with those who are not involved in the dispute. Penguin's utter lack of answers shall suffice as their answer to these concerns."

This is the proof. I posted the link once already but for some reason my whole post was removed. The story that appears from both Maxwell and Gerald is thus.

Magic Makers approached Penguin with a new(?) item called Magic Mints. Penguin, not knowing there was a problem with it, started selling it. Magic City (Gerald) found out about it and contacted Maxwell, who then appologised and offered to reimburse Colin and try to reach an agreement. Barring that, he agreed to take it off the shelves. Gerald discussed it with Colin and together they worked out an agreement. Maxwell continued selling it rightfully calling it an authorised version.

Here's where the controversy started. Colin decided that he wants out of the deal and started badmouthing Penguin on the Genii forums, claiming to be a victim of Penguin piracy (never a word was mentioned about MM who manufactured it or The Magic Warehouse who also sell it). After it became clear that there is no further agreement, Penguin took it off their list.

About the original agreement, both Maxwell and Gerald claim it was while Colin denies it. Someone is obviously lying. If it's Maxwell, why would Gerald back him. I'm not saying Colin lied - I think most people would be intelligent enough to draw their own conclusions.

Lastly, this thread was about releasing effects despite the risk of them being copied. It was only after Colin hijacked it and made it a Penguin bashing thread that I post my views.

Sorry to have hijacked your topic but you asked a question and to give you an honest opinion I had to explain the situation I have found myself in. So I am going against Gerald of Magic City's wishes and posting an e.mail he sent to me a couple of weeks ago. Please read carefully and you will see that a deal was done without my knowledge. Gerald thought he was doing the right thing for me, without consulting me at all. I still do not know why.
Martin told me about the alledged 'damages' I didn't agree entirely but Martin persuaded me that it was in my interest as it was a very unreputable company that he/gerald/magic city were dealing with, therefore I should accept the check when it arrives and if Penguin continued to sell magic mints we would take the matter further. He also ordered another fifty 'Lifesavers'. There was no mention of the $1000 being for my authorisation of magic mints and it was definately not a 'pay-off'. Martin then phoned me 2/3 days later to cancel the order of Lifesavers as Penguin were continuing to sell magic mints and now apparently with my 'authorisation'. He told me to contact the relevant magazines etc. etc. etc.
You will also see where Gerald states that the Check never arrived from Maxwell. The check he states on the 'Genii' forum that he posted to Magic City.
I aplogise now to Gerald for going against his wishes but I did ask him to re-send another e.mail which I could post but he declined. Recent events and 'revelations' have forced my hand. Here it is:

Hello Colin,

I have never not replyed to you. This is the first email you asked me a question. I will be happy to answer any questions you have. But let me start from the begining.

I heard that Penguin was selling your trick as "Magic Mints" I was able to stop him, but I have no legal right to do so. I was able to talk him into $1000 to you. He did not have to pay you anything and I was surprized he agreed. Next I see you bad mouthing the guy, fine. I don't care if you do or don't. At that point he is not going to pay you anything.

I was just trying to get you some money for this thing, I see now I should not have got involved, but I hope you understand that he did buy the rest of our stock and wants more. I still need more and have never stopped my order and need more. I don't agree with Magic Makers making your item, but other dealers are carrying "magic Mints". Penquin was the only ones to stand up and try and help out. I would sudjest that we lower the price down to $20-$25 retail. I think people would rather buy yours and not the knock-off Even better- price it at $15.00 and kill the sales of "magic mints" all together. One good thing about this is Linking Livesavors is selling again. We had not sold any in awhile.

to answer your questions- No check, so I did not forward. You are not the bad guy in this, but your the one that looses. It sucks, that's why I tried to get you the money.

This email is for your eyes only and not to be placed online or forward to anyone. It is not well thought out and full of errors.

What follows is a message and my relpy to Meilchel earlier this evening.
meilechl

Loyal user
Posted: Mon, Sep 6th, 2004 - 5:59 PM (EST)

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I didn't want to ask this on the forums as I didn't want to start a fight over Penguin. There're a couple of things I don't understand. First of all, when did you first become aware of the deal between Gerald and Maxwell? Secondly, if' as Gerald said, Penguin was the only one to agree to any sort of compensation, why did you announce that you'd become the victim of 'Penguin' piracy?

Thanks,

Eli.
Colin Gilbert

New user
Posted: Mon, Sep 6th, 2004 - 7:50 PM (EST)

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I became aware of the deal when I got the phone call from Martin Breese. No date of any deal was actually mentioned as I recall but I gathered it had been done quite a while before the phone conversation with Martin as he was shocked himself to have 'only just found out' about it all. He seemed furios.
There was no mention of Magic Makers etc. at that point and, until well into the forums, no-one actually new/told me that it was Magic Makers that were actually making them. I have already explained why I have not gone after Magic Makers or the other retailers of M.Mints or whatever brand. Penguin used my name to promote their item even after I had told them not to. If The $1000 dollars was for my authorisation Why wasn't I informed by M.City.? Gerald had never contacted me until you read the e.mail I have already posted. This was way into trying to fill the gaps. Then he told me not to use it.??! what good is that?
I know it appears I had an agreement with someone and backed out, but that is totally incorrect. I have been dumped on, but we are to far apart for you to smell it. So even though I have done nothing wrong, I have to prove my innocence?
I have received nothing from Maxwell. Maxwell states he sent a cheque, so everyone assumes that he must have done so because as you say 'Gerald backs him up'.
I wouldn't have agreed to any deal if I had Known. I didn't want my effect to be eventually sold in 'Joke' shops. But It was far too late by the time I got to know.
So please believe me when I say 'I am not in it for the money' What I mean by that is, not this issue or topic. Linking Lifesaver has no monetary value for me. I want to sell other effects for money of course I do but this 'going after Penguin' was purely an attempt to try and bring the magic world into some sort of reputable pastime/hobby/business, wherever you play your part. It was intended to be for the good of everyone involved, be you a magician,dealer and especially of course, an inventor. That was all.
If I wanted to be called names and be accused of being a liar etc. I would go and sit with the wife.
Honestly mate at the end of the day, I am about 4000 miles away, so I can only tell you what I know I have been told. The choice is yours of who to believe. Thank you for your concern, Colin.


So my reason for pasting it on here is once and for all to put an end to this sordid affair. I am going to get nowhere with my plight to bring magic up to any form of reputable level. I know it was a big hill to climb, but one step at a time, maybe we could have got there, but there are too many people throwing marbles under our feet to even get started. I invent 'Tricks', I recently tried to invent a way of making magic a more 'honest/sivilised' occupation/hobby but that idea didn't sell very well. (glad I didn't Patent it)! Anyway, Suffice to say, As I have never recieved anything from Maxwell Murphy and he like to 'do his bit for charity' I suggest he donates the $1000 to a charity of his choice.(No, not 'send Richard K.' up the Amazon fund) But something just as good that would benefit magic.
Seriously though, A magicians benevolent fund if there is one, but some charity somewhere. Surely the man can do that. After all it isn't really his money he is donating. But I would like him to publish the reciepts on this forum as proof, then for my part it would put an end to all this worthless arguing and he could go back to selling Magic Mints. (Still without my blessing, but as has been pointed out, I can't stop him). Life really is to short. So come on Maxwell, put your money where you say your heart is.

Could someone please paste the above request on the other forums so Maxwell will find it? I, for obvious reasons I am unable to. I tried to contact R.K. but apparently he had gone off to buy a wet suit.

Meilechl, your post is as if you are the P.R. rep for Penguin. Where is your info from? Please post the source so we can all read it. I think Colin's posting of the e-mail from Gerald says a lot. Colin obviously knew nothing of the 'endorsement deal'.

Colin, your suggestion to donate the money to a charity is noble and to be applauded. You keep saying it's not about the money it's about ethics but I think some people don't see that. If Maxwell has not sent the check because he didn't feel obliged to after the bad PR Penguin got then he should at least feel a twinge of guilt now and send it to a charity as suggested.

Just my 2 pence worth.

Am I missing something or are you talking about "performing" whereas everyone else on this thread is talking about "publishing" or "releasing" (new items). You could decide never to publish or release anything new you've created and still go out and perform your own stuff!

I'm assuming that you're incapable of clicking on a link, otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question. I'll quote the entire post be Gerald.





I first read it in my pm inbox, so I'll just copy/paste my reply.

Meilechl,

The basis of your assumptions has already been proven to be out of date, incomplete, and/or incorrect; as evidenced in this thread. Why are you still clinging to it?

Maxwell Murphy's "Illusive Check" has never surfaced. Not to the intended recipient, not to the assumed intermediary, and not in Murphy's hands either. He appears to never have paid for anything, which is in direct contradiction to the claims he and others have made here.

Cheers

Tom

Appologies meilechl, I had not seen the link on 'This' in your posting, however having read the original posting as part of the thread it was in I'm not convinced. As Tom says... "Where's the cheque?"

Anyone can say anyone has said anything but to say you sent a cheque and not be able (apparently) to back that up, which would be the only 'tangible proof' of the deal, leaves a funny smell for me.

Posted: Tue, Sep 7th, 2004 - 2:10 PM (EST)
I've read your reply thouroughly and I emphasize with you. It must feel awful to be "dumped" upon and not be able to do a *** thing about it. I do appologise for my tone of voice (metaphorically speaking, of course). In my defence, it partly brought on by having the Cutts schmuck jump down my neck for trying to civily discuss a financial subject. I do believe, however, that Maxwell did not set out to wrong you, and when he used your name he did so with the belief that you agree. Perhaps I'm wrong. Who knows? Anyway, I wish you lots of success in all your endeavours and esp. if and when you decide to release any subsequent effects. Cheers, Eli (meilechl) Ps. Between us, did you really lose money over this mess or did it actually boost sales because of all the publicity? Not that it makes it any less wrong, I'm just curious.

Colin Gilbert New user Posted: Tue, Sep 7th, 2004 - 2:37 PM (EST)
Hi, your first question about Max, My honest answer to that is, I simply do not know. I just wasn't consulted at all and when I did find out from Martin in the first instance, he wasn't aware of the 'agreement' made between Gerald and Max. But max was in the wrong for not replying to me after he found out my contact add. (which Gerald could have given him straight away anyway) and for continuing to sell them with my 'authorisation' even after he realised (if he 'was' in the clear) that something wasn't right. I only 'bad mouthed' Maxwell long after I realised that no check was on it's way and he continued to ignore me and carry on as if I had never complained at all. To your second question I can only say this, I have lost money as I have turned down any more orders from Magic City. They were the only place I sent them to. For some reason they still want them, I don't know why. Guilt perhaps? I do not know. But what other dealer in his right mind would want to stock it anyway after all this? Fancy a go at being an importer? No, I thought not! All the best, Colin


Well he nearly posted everything.

But that is the last straw. I get a public flogging from Meilcehl and then a ‘private’ apology. Then he only post’s the bits he wants you to see!

So that is it. I am finished with forums. I do not mean that in any way derogatory, what I mean is, I have nothing to give to them. I just don’t ‘feel at home’ on here, and on the ‘Genii’ forum I was made as welcome as a Penguin in a fish farm.
I have only recently realised that I have been ‘into’ a totally different world of magic than I thought I was ‘involved’ in. My knowledge of the ‘magic world’ is miniscule compared to what is really going on out there. (about the size of ‘‘cowboy4evers’’ brain or to put it another way, not enough to plug the hole in a lifesaver).
I mostly perform ‘my own’ magic, that way I know my audience have probably never ‘seen it done before’. So forums haven’t really been my ‘thing’.
I cannot ‘join in’ a topic for instance where a couple of magicians are discussing the latest DVD from whoever. I haven’t got it. And at that time wouldn’t know where to buy it. (or weather it was a genuine copy). So I only joined this forum as the topic did concern me after all.
This topic, however, has been referred to, as being ‘better than any soap’, and that is all it has become. Well this particular ‘‘soap’’ is dropping character, but don’t worry there will be another along shortly. Didn’t someone mention that penguin had got some ‘new’ releases? If one of them has the ‘Great wall of china’ in the title, it is probably a rip-off. (Just a guess).
So it looks at last, that we may see a conclusion. Weather you see proof of a check is another matter. But, for future reference, the next time, and I am sure there will be one, the next time Maxwell says that he has done nothing wrong and his conscience is clear, remember this, NOTHING IS AS ‘‘FISHY’’ AS A GREEDY PENGUIN.
My very best to you all, good, bad or ugly,
Colin Gilbert.

I don'y quite understand this...Infact Im quite confused...Can someone help me understand this mess...is this still being sold by Penguin under Magic Mints? If so why?

If its becasue Collin and Co. were forced into a deal or offered some cash that was supposed to be an act of generousity or out of respect because there was nothing they could do to stop them from selling it leagally, then that is just wrong!

If Penguin now knows its a knock off after they bought it, then they should return the stock back to Rob & Stiffya for a refund and sell the linking lifesavers under proper authorization, and be done with it. There shouldn't even be an issue here! Loose Magic Mints! Whats the confusion here? It seems pretty simple to me! I amoung others refuse to sell to dealers that carry MagicMaker's line. The good news is that more and more are following suit. Perhaps one day it might make a difference.

Collin I feel for ya man!

P.

This response stems with a page I read on Bazar de Magia's website today. Not to mention all the discussions that have been going on about them for the past few months.

I currently deal with Magic Makers in my own shop. I have lot of their stock on hand. But I am going to eat those losses. I am yanking their product line from my shelves this week.

8)