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shrink
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Its not just the question its the context that will also have an effect.
discjockey
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Perhaps a memory wipe would be possible, but its only for short term.
True-Gossiper
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Aamwood, yes there are A LOT of those 'hypnosis crime' happening in Indonesia, and I believe they're not the real hypnosis as is stage or clinical one.

Up to this point, I personally view that they're actually a combination of conning, good theatrical appearance and plain robbery. And the filed report by the victims are questionable too cos they're very much influenced by the Indonesian myth of occult magic such as voodoo (or 'gendam' in Bahasa).

I was trying to write an ebook about this subject too a couple of times ago, but got stalled since I need more data to make the material more convincing.
"I was the future.." TG, 2006
Lee Darrow
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Quote:
On 2004-08-30 13:16, procyonrising wrote:
Hi Mike,

Apologies, but the late Martin Orne (UPenn) did a few studies that showed people, when hypnotized, do indeed follow suggestions to harm other people. Moreover, while I agree that you can't be hypnotized against your will, you can be hypnotized without knowing it.

However, for the sake of this thread, it's most likely one of three things:

1. A hoax story, like stealing kidneys for the black market.

2. A fake story, where the victim was bilked and felt stupid about it, so they file a fictitious claim against the criminal.

3. The real thing, but it would most likely be a very persistent criminal who searches for people who are easily intimidated or are very trusting - to a fault (and there are many such people, though they comprise a very insignificant part of the population).

Best,

James.


James, just for the record, the Orne studies were seriously flawed. They were performed after the volunteers were given the usual American Psycological Association information sheet on how experimental volunteers are to be handled and the issue of safety for all concerned is stressed throughout that document, making it a confounding variable for the tests. Thus, they believed the guns were loaded with blanks before they were hypnotized and the control groups in follow up studies showed that this was the case.

Secondly, with regard to the acid test (throwing "acid" at the target person) several of the volunteers and some of the experimenters stated clearly that the "invisible glass" wasn't invisible when viewed from several different angles.

Sorry to disagree, but those studies are currently being used as examples of flawed experimental design in several psych programs in several universities across the USA.

As to the news reports being fake or a cover story for being gullible - you are probably right. Many people will try to blame some sort of hypnosis instead of admitting that they got taken by a con artist.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.H. (Certified Hypnotherapist, National Guild of Hypnotists)
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Ian Broadmore
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I am a clinical hypnotherapist of over twenty years standing and carry a senior qualification in hypnotherapy practice, am a member of the British hypnotherapy association, and the GHSC. I can tell you now you cannot hypnotise any body against their will, it is self hypnosis, empathy and co-operation. They have to WANT to be hypnotised. Now I am going to contradic twenty years of clinical experience you can hypnotise ANYONE (except alcoholics, drug users or mentally impaired people) against their will. (But its not hypnosis). I am not going to elaborate here due to ethical reasons Ian. MBHA, SQHP MIAH, NLP D.Hyp-Psy.
bsmith
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Hypnosis is a belief system that the subject and hypnostist participate in. If the 'subject' (willing or unwilling) are under the belief that they have no control over what is happening, wouldn't that belief system cause them to do things against their will?

Wouldn't the seed of suggestion be planted when people watch the news and here stories of people that have been robbed? Viewers at home might say "It happened to these people so it could happen to me" creating a (false, but true to them) belief system for themselves about hyposis.

Ian, your authority on the subject is credible.
Quote:
"I am a clinical hypnotherapist of over twenty years standing and carry a senior qualification in hypnotherapy practice, am a member of the British hypnotherapy association, and the GHSC. I can tell you now you cannot hypnotise any body against their will, it is self hypnosis, empathy and co-operation."

That is enough for the readers of this thread to know that it is true, but what about the people that don't have the advantage of reading this thread or talking to a hypnotist? What if the only thing they know about hypnosis is what they hear through these stories?

Respectfully,
Robertson
procyonrising
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Quote:
James, just for the record, the Orne studies were seriously flawed. They were performed after the volunteers were given the usual American Psycological Association information sheet on how experimental volunteers are to be handled and the issue of safety for all concerned is stressed throughout that document, making it a confounding variable for the tests. Thus, they believed the guns were loaded with blanks before they were hypnotized and the control groups in follow up studies showed that this was the case.


Hi Lee. I want to believe you here, I really do. However, I need you to clarify a couple of things for me.

1. There's no such thing as a "usual APA information sheet." If you can let me know where you got that information, as well as what exactly it's supposed to be, I'm sure we can figure this out.

2. Orne didn't use a gun. (Where are you getting this information?)

Quote:
Secondly, with regard to the acid test (throwing "acid" at the target person) several of the volunteers and some of the experimenters stated clearly that the "invisible glass" wasn't invisible when viewed from several different angles.


Lee, this isn't considered a major point that would preclude a study from being published. After all, if that did come up in the debriefing, who's to say that they couldn't have removed the glass? (You'd actually be coding intent rather than the actual action; did the subject make an effort to go over to the glass?) Moreover, Orne did several different studies looking at the same thing, so it becomes increasingly difficult to argue that the effect isn't true.

Quote:
Sorry to disagree, but those studies are currently being used as examples of flawed experimental design in several psych programs in several universities across the USA.


It's fine to disagree, but really? I'm not some Orne loyalist, but I'm pretty sure the opposite is true, that a lot of researchers actually praise Orne's originality and innovative approaches to hypnosis research. (I mean, people are still using his real-simulator paradigm...)

Quote:
As to the news reports being fake or a cover story for being gullible - you are probably right. Many people will try to blame some sort of hypnosis instead of admitting that they got taken by a con artist.


Yeah... I've always thought that a good con makes the mark confused and disoriented. When they come out of that and realize what went wrong, it's easy to see how they can attribute it to hypnosis. (Just a theory though...)

Best,
James.
shrink
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The way I see hypnosis is through an extended definition. If someone is confused and disorientated in such a way that it renders them either more suggestable or unable resist a "command" then for me and my definition it is actually hypnosis.

While I also agree it may be that other explanations such as hoax or hiding embarressment may be just as valid I personally believe that the orgininal claim is well within the realms of possibility.

Within the definition I use to describe hypnosis it is a process that is happening all the time.

Teachers, political leaders, counselors, parents,religeous leaders, Authority figures are all hypnotists without realising it.

Shrink
Hypnotic Winter
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Right, I'm not going to go into it but I have a unique condition allowing me to understand the subconscious better then most people, this is not an ego statment, my condition is a curse. As a result I know more about hypnosis then is even in some books. For moral reasons I'm going to allow the reasons and answers to above quesations already stated, to stand and only say that some of the information stated in this thred is entirely misdirection put in place to protect people.

H.W
When your only reality is an illusion, then illusion is reality.
hkwiles
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Here is a little anecdote that will interest you and I would welcome any serious comments.This is perfectly true.

This summer I was out in the garden on a redhot day doing some serious sorting out.I dug all the boarders and then started on the hard graft.. digging over a rough area at the top of the garden. I slogged at this all morning with out hardly stopping.
Around dinner time my daughter came over was was on the sunbed trying to get a tan along with my wife. I took a short break as I was quite whacked and had a sandwich and a drink...

here the important bit and what after 5 months seems very relevant.....

I went over to my daughter and pretended to hypnotise her whilst she had her eyes shut..."relax..imagine you are on sunbed on a beautiful beach... listen to the sea..."etc etc. she started laughing and said not to be stupid.I wandered on to the lawn and lay face down , shut my eyes and started thinking about the scene to myself. After only a minute or so (so my wife tells me)
I got up went back to the top of the garden and started slogging away, suddenly I stopped..looked at my dirty hands and said "whose put all this rubbish here?" I walked down to the borders and looked down at the tidy view and said"whose done all this?" I couldn't remember any thing.
My wife rang the hospital and told them it looked as if I had lost my memory.She took me inside , told me to wash my hands and change into some decent trousers and shoes and then my son took me to the hospital.
They asked me my name , where I lived etc all which I answered correctly, and decided I would have to stay in overnight. I had another Doctor do a few tests ask me who was Queen, when the Coronation was , who was Prime Minister. he said that four hours was a long time for it to have been sun stroke.
When my lad came, I asked what the fooball score was for my Team (Leeds United) and he told me they had lost.
"Have we been relegated I asked?"
"Yes" he said"but we knew that a couple of weeks ago"
Any way I stayed overnight and the next day was OK and so sent home and told I would probably be called back to see a neurologist and maybe have a scan.I didn't (haven't yet)had a call back and am OK.
Now.....as things have come back to me, I remember being totally aware of what was going on but feeling strange and not caring , just did whatever was asked of me .. didn't ask why I was going to hospital, why I wasn't driving.just complied.
I now believe that at the point in time earlier that I said was important ..that I actually hypnotised myself whilst being tired out and in a state of complete relaxation (near exhaustion to be exact).do you think this could be the case?

Howard
bobser
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Hey 'hkwiles', don't fret, you're merely going through what some people call: 'a senior moment'. You'll get many more from here on in... don't worry about it.

Quote:
On 2004-12-12 07:33, Ian Broadmore wrote:
I am a clinical hypnotherapist of over twenty years standing and carry a senior qualification in hypnotherapy practice, am a member of the British hypnotherapy association, and the GHSC. I can tell you now you cannot hypnotise any body against their will, it is self hypnosis, empathy and co-operation. They have to WANT to be hypnotised. Now I am going to contradict twenty years of clinical experience you can hypnotise ANYONE (except alcoholics, drug users or mentally impaired people) against their will. (But its not hypnosis). I am not going to elaborate here due to ethical reasons Ian. MBHA, SQHP MIAH, NLP D.Hyp-Psy.


Neither I, nor I'm sure anybody else, understood a word of what you're talking about. Is it at all possible for you to be a little more bold?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
shrink
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I don't know but when Luke Jermay first released his 7 Decpetions and Derren had his show where he made members of the public forget where they were travelling to, I was playing around with forgetting techniques, writing language to test out later etc. I was in town and had to leave the bar to get some money out of the cash line. A number which Ive hasd for at least five years I couldn't remember. I was so embaressed I walked around for a while before returning. I had to borrow some cash pretending that the cash line was out of order. Next day I woke up and knew the number immediately but for the whole evening before I couldn't remember it for the first and only time in all those years..
A.G.
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One too many?
majhra
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Shrink,

Ahh the joys of being a hypnotist and knowing how powerful suggestions really are... ;-)

Enjoy,
M.
bsmith
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Nice brain fart, Shrink. On a similar note, I've been paying a lot of visits to my grandmother who is becoming more and more forgetful each day. I sometimes find myself forgeting things along with her (due to our rapport?). Not to long ago she looked at me and asked "What is my phone number?" This is a number that I have known since I was a child but for some reason I couldn't remember it! I got that feeling like it was on the "tip of my tongue" but I couldn't retrieve the information. I think her "senior moments" are contagious.
shrink
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Quote:
On 2004-12-12 20:47, gerardi wrote:
One too many?


This was at the beggining of the evening I had no drink. I don't drink much anyway. I never get drunk..
Ian Broadmore
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Bobser, no I wont elaborate for the reasons stated!!!!
Hypnotic Winter
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I had learned the forgetting tecneque as a pre test method origionally to use to find subjects for hypnosis, you make people forget their own name, or other bits and pieces to se eif they would make good hypnotic subjects.

H.W
When your only reality is an illusion, then illusion is reality.
bobser
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Quote:
On 2004-12-12 07:33, Ian Broadmore wrote:
I am a clinical hypnotherapist of over twenty years standing and carry a senior qualification in hypnotherapy practice, am a member of the British hypnotherapy association, and the GHSC. I can tell you now you cannot hypnotise any body against their will, it is self hypnosis, empathy and co-operation. They have to WANT to be hypnotised. Now I am going to contradic twenty years of clinical experience you can hypnotise ANYONE (except alcoholics, drug users or mentally impaired people) against their will. (But its not hypnosis). I am not going to elaborate here due to ethical reasons Ian. MBHA, SQHP MIAH, NLP D.Hyp-Psy.


Are you saying you CAN or CANNOT hypnotize (apart from alcoholics, drug users or mentally impaired people) against their will?
And if your "not going to elaborate"(your words in your last post), then these words of yours, with respect , are of no value in this ROOM.
The majority of us here are professional mentalists which I believe, again with respect, is a notch above a mere hypnotist, which lets face it can be learned in an hour (TOPS). So c'mon Ian, no mor B**L S**t... you are playing with the big boys here, keep it real or fade away!
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
shrink
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C'mon Bobster, Hypnosis can't be learned in an hour.....and a good stage hypnotist is quite difficult to find. There are however many below average ones around (they may think they are good)which is one of the reasons the market crashed here.

I would imagine there are many below average mentalists around to because it really takes more than performing a few effects in order to be a good performer.

Hypnosis can be highly skilled even more so than mentalism depending on where you want to take it...

I think Ian was suggesting that there is more than what is generally suggested when it comes to hypnosis.

It may be that there is a cover up as to what can and cannot be done with hypnosis. I personaly believe that there are some people so suggestable you can get them to do just about anything...
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