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Michael Dustman Inner circle Columbus, Ohio 1220 Posts |
I was not making a point for saying that high prices are set to aim it towards only professional performers. (I much prefer Karl's term of workers) My original point was twofold about why Kerry MAY have priced the item this way. (I say MAY because I don't know the exact answer.)
1) Anyone who has seen Kerry's act or seen his equipment realizes there is some high tech, expensive gadgetry that goes into it. At any one time, Kerry can have 2 or 3 remotes on his body to control 10 different props. These items alone cost some money to manufacture. The remotes, receivers, circutry, lights, wiring...is one thing that could drive up the cost on this effect. 2) Kerry MAY be finally protecting himself and at least trying to make a little bit of money off of his original ideas. As I said before...there are two items being marketed today that have been a feature of Kerry's act for almost 20 years. Kerry didn't release them and kept them to himself, as he has every right to do. About 3 years ago, these two effects were marketed by someone else (as Kerry told me, right down to the patter) and no credit given to Kerry. So, personally, I don't blame someone for wanting to at least make some change off of something that took them a lot of time to design, manufacture, fine tune in front of audiences, and make a living from. I know a few people have asked Kerry permission to use his routine. Kerry finally decided to release it. He put on the fair market value of what he thought it was worth. (Again...all these posts beating up the guys at Hocus Pocus...C'mon.....they don't set the price. You can buy the same thing from Kerry directly off his website for the same price. Hocus Pocus doesn't drive up the prices on every item that comes through the door. Cut them some slack) As far as justifying costs for professionals (or workers.) When I decide on what to spend money on...I look at 3 things. 1) Can I use it? Does it fit my act and my style? 2) Does it have a good reputation? 3) Will I see a return on my investment? (Very important concept to me as I work for the federal govt. Return on investment is a lost art) I will use The Final Answer for example since it has been invoked at least 5 or 6 times on this thread. (Cracks me up this thread has almost 40 posts for something everyone has already said they were not buying.) 1) Does it fit my act? Yes. I feature the Bill to Lemon in my act. I had a unique problem I wanted to solve. So item 1 is satisfied. 2) Does it have a good reputation? Yes. As I have said before, I had heard about Bob's routine for years. I secretly coveted it. Never thought it would be released. Didn't know Scott did the routine, but enjoyed his creative thinking and seeing him perform at Ceasars. So yes...I believed it had a good reputation...item 2, satisfied. 3) Would I see a Return on Investment? There were almost 2 pages to the TFA thread just discussing the cost of the effect. Whatever side of "the fence" you came down on, I sum it up this way. I knew, that my bill to lemon routine is one of two that is the most requested routine to see again. It is the routine that guarantees some repeat bookings for me. I know that anything I could do to improve it, would even make my act more of a selling point. I knew, in one show, I would have more than enough money to pay for the effect. So did I get my ROI? You betcha...and then some. Performed now 6 times in the last month...and have booked at least one show on every single one of those performances. So my $395 investment (thanks for the free shipping Hocus Pocus...yeah..those guys are so greedy...wanting to make a buck so bad they gave free shipping) has now guaranteed me at least $3000 or $4000. That is what "workers" look for. Now only if I actually liked the darn D'Lite routine, I could almost buy one. |
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Jim Tighe Veteran user West Virginia 363 Posts |
Does it come with batteries?
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tdowell Inner circle 1050 Posts |
If ya got it flaunt it. Bling Bling!
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niva Inner circle Malta (Europe) 2970 Posts |
Karl Miller, then can you tell me why most of the books and DVDs aren't priced around six figures? Because there are many DVDs which have polished material on them, as there are also similar books. And there is also other material which can be sold for much much higher and is not.
We all know that there are items on the market that are priced so high and there is nothing in the product to justify that. I am not speaking of this particular effect here, because I cannot determine the exact cost to built such a contraption. And I seriously doubt high prices help in protecting one's creations. On the contrary I feel such things encourage piracy. I am ready to bet the plans for this one will be on the Internet in a couple of months or maybe sold off ebay. Jim Tighe, you cracked me up, buddy.
Yours,
Ivan |
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rnaviaux Loyal user 287 Posts |
Seriously - What a bunch of whiners. I wonder what the actual manufacturing costs were for this product?
UFO must have a cost of less than one cent for the gimmicks - Yet sells for twenty dollars at least in Vegas. That is a 2000 percent mark-up! (Yeah I know the packaging and such probably cost more. Hollywood magic sold IT for 10 dollars in 1990. No special packaging.) Sounds like the electronics alone could cost a couple hundred dollars. But lets assume a 2000 percent markup: That means this effect would have cost two dollars and fifty cents. Now common sense tells us that it cost way more than a couple dollars. So the cost of this effect is certainly priced cheaper than UFO; considering it from the markup point of view that is. Seems like the real complaints are from people that want something for nothing. (That is a defintion for criminality by the way.) As far as sports events are concerned. People do pay those high prices because they want to see the event live. (I can't for the life of me figure out why. The view is always better on my TV.) Sure prices would go down if nobody went. But then again maybe the game would never get played at all. Sincerely, Randy PS "I have no affiliation with this product in any way. Never saw the show nor know how it is designed. I am fairly certain I will never buy it." |
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Regan Inner circle U.S.A. 5726 Posts |
The games went on for years and years before ticket prices got so outrageous and million dollar contracts were the norm.
Ragen
Mister Mystery
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meilechl Special user 657 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-09-01 00:08, Karl Miller wrote: No, I'll tell you why. Because it costs $4500! It's a status symbol. Like a Ferari or a Lamborghini. Buying a $4500 routine makes one feel like a proffesional. We automatically associate price with value. When we some something ridiculously overpriced we tend to think, 'Well, it's The Great Magicini's routine...many years of performances...very polished....' etc. etc. What rubbish. It's worth nowhere near as much and you shouldn't pay as much. Maybe that way the price will come down. As long as there are schmucks who pay there'll be those who charge. Make no mistake, nothing wrong in charging a lot of money (for non-essential items). After all, we live in a capitalist society. Just don't say that the price is reasonable. Ps. My comments aren't aimed at this particular routine because I don't know the actual costs, but at overpriced magic in general. |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Magicians often make the mistake of comparing the production price for magic with that of products with a larger market.
For example, I had a product on the market for a while called the "Teleportation Device." It is a great routine, from my working act on cruise ships. The cost of the device, had it been mass produced, would have been around $30. But we only made a hundred. We had to pay premium for the parts, and premium for the labor. Each product had a bread board to assemble, lots of soldering and drilling of holes and other time-consuming tasks. All of which we paid an engineer by the hour. Even at that, each device took several hours of work to put together. We also had to produce a videotape explanation of the routine and handling, and include the costs of advertising and packaging. Had we expected to sell several hundred thousand of them, we could have had all this done cheaply by shipping the work out to Asia. But for a hundred? People still complained about the price, at least all those who didn't spend it. The cost was such that we could not afford to even wholesale the piece, and keep the price below $600. So Hocus-Pocus and School for Scoundrels combined production resources and produced the product and handled it as an exclusive item, sold only at retail prices in order to keep the price down. Even so, it was not a big moneymaker for either of us. We sold out all we made, and could have sold more, but the profit was outweighed by the amount of labor, capital, and the inability to wholesale to a wider market. Our "Trade Show Shells" are a similar item. They cost us so much time in development and production, that we could not sell them for a price that we felt was reasonable for wholesale. So Hocus-Pocus and School for Scoundrels released the product together as a retail exclusive product. We do not expect to produce any more of them once the current ones are gone for a long time. Doing 500 of an item such as these does not lower the cost of production over doing 100. Only when a product can be manufactured for a much larger market can economies of scale become involved. Both Hocus-Pocus and School for Scoundrels made money off the deal, but not enough to justify the work and expense that went into it. Unless we include all the great responses from reviews and from the buyers, and the enhanced reputation for quality that our companies received from providing these items to those who could use them. Non-professionals don't seem to value exclusivity very much. But professionals have a hard time spending $30 on a prop that can be seen at any magic shop or in any cubscout banquet, and yet would gladly pay $300-$4000 dollars for a prop that few people have seen. When someone gets paid more than a thousand dollars a show, he quickly changes his mind about what an original prop and routine is worth. I for one, have to say that I am proud that I create many of my own routines for both stage and close-up. But rarely do I have enough original material that is of sufficient quality to cover the shows that I do on a cruise ship or numerous repeat shows that I do for corporations. I, like most professionals, depend a great deal on highly polished, well worked out published and marketed routines and props by other profesionals like Billy McComb, Martin Lewis, Terry Seabrook, Kerry Pollock and others in order to fill my shows. I tend to prefer to spend my money on routines that are unique enough that the audience is not likely to have seen them before. If I spend say, $850 on a Bowling Ball production that is well-made, well thought out, and a crowd pleaser, it is comforting to know that I am getting even more of a bargain--since not every act that an audience may have seen done by their local amateur is likely to have included it. I can tell you that Kerry Pollack makes more for performing his original routine just once, than he does for selling it to a possible competitor. Those who talk the way some of you on this board do, "know the price of everything and the value of nothing." |
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
If you are an working pro the price may make sense. If you are an amateur take the $4500 and pay for personal magic lessons from an expert in the field of magic you are most interested in.
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
If you are just starting out playing a guitar, a top of the line Fender may not be right for you either. But don't criticize Fender or Martin for making high priced guitars for the pros.
Not every ad that you see in a catalog or magazine is meant for you. Some are meant just for the pros and collectors. If you feel something is overpriced, it probably is--for you. |
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Sean W. Burke Loyal user Washington D.C. 300 Posts |
Whit,
Thanks for your insight on this issue, it definitely had an impact on my perspective. Sorry if I offended anyone here, sometimes my sarcasm doesn't really come through very well on message boards. -Sean |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Sean,
No offense at all, from you or anyone. Just trying to show another perspective on the issue. Sometimes it is difficult to see something from another's point of view, and the great thing about this board is that we have both pros and amateurs together, as well as the manufacurers, and we get a chance to share from all positions. I just wanted to point out how a fulltime pro might see things differently. If someone is being paid, say $2500 for a thirty minute show, what is ten minutes of socko material worth to him? Amortize that over two or three shows that use that ten minutes, you will quickly see that the value of good, usable material to a pro is considerably different than it is to a hobbyist. Many of those who produce the best material, the material that most of you really want to do, have that sort of valuation in mind of what their original ten minutes of stage time is worth. |
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cardfreakhk Special user Hong Kong SAR 585 Posts |
Yes, thanks for the posts, I think we learnt a lot.
This topic makes me remember those days when you couldn't buy magic so easily even you are a rich man. IMO, the value of magic is difficult to judge. I have seen many examples in this thread, but ALL still can't get close to the magic field. I have a friend who actually paid about USD300 to a matrix guy(sorry I can't remember the name) for learning ONE card move. And he is happy.
Don't just dream, stay awake and action!
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rnaviaux Loyal user 287 Posts |
I heard a magician (Michael Finney) say he paid a hundred (maybe two hundred) dollars for his first thumb tip. Went on to say it was worth EVERY penny to him.
Ticket prices for sports events can't be outrageous as they ARE getting sold. (Of course the teams win/lose record has something to do with the actual percentage of seats sold.) I would have gladly paid ten times what I did for Mr. Haydn's 'Chicago Suprise'. It has been invaluable to me in my shows and in promoting myself. (And I admit I have nailed a lot of "magicians" with it.) Sincerely, Randy |
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rnaviaux Loyal user 287 Posts |
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend eight years ago. We were both into martial arts. His classes cost him forty dollars a month at most. I was paying over a hundred dollars a month.
He thought I was being ripped off. I thought he was being ripped off. IMHO he was learning something useless and what I was learning was VERY effective. (He pretty much agreed with this point.) So what gives? (By the way, we both had similar positions in the same company so it wasn't that we were in different income brackets.)We both trained the same number of hours a week with about the same number of students in class. Was I getting ripped off? The information we were being given was similar in many respects as well. The unitiated may not have been able to tell the difference. I wonder how much Copperfield pays to creators of effects he ends up never using. Just my 2 cents. Randy |
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Sean W. Burke Loyal user Washington D.C. 300 Posts |
Not to change the subject but I have heard many great things about Chicago Surprise. Is it still available and where can I find out more about it. Is it similiar to the Chicago Opener?
Thanks |
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rnaviaux Loyal user 287 Posts |
http://www.schoolforscoundrels.com
It's still available last I heard but you better get it quick before the price goes up. Randy |
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Sean W. Burke Loyal user Washington D.C. 300 Posts |
Nevermind I found my answer at schoolforscoundrels.com.
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Sean W. Burke Loyal user Washington D.C. 300 Posts |
Your too quick randy!
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rnaviaux Loyal user 287 Posts |
At work and bored.
Plus one day I'd like to break the 100 post barrier so I can get all the secrets for free! Randy |
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