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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » Value, price, worth, and $4500 d'lites (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Michael Dustman
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OK....so as I contemplate purchasing this effect, I am going to take the discussion on Magic Café into consideration...After all, that is why we read reveiws and such, to help us make a decision.

So if I buy this trick, I could be getting a solid piece of entertainment, honed to perfection by years of performance by a professional who I have seen perform, had a chance to chat with in the hotel, and I admire. I know that with a show or two, I can pay it off, justifying my investment (plus writing it off in taxes anyway). I have carefully weighed my show to determine if this will be a fit to me and my style and would fit into my show. (After all, it isn't just your father's or Rocco's basic $29.95 D'Lite Routine)

But, I also need to consider that by me purchasing this, I will have screwed my fellow brethern on this board who I admire and respect their opinions because now that people are buying it, it justifies high prices in magic, and would prevent Kerry from releasing cheaper products in the future to meet the supply and demand. From some of the comments on this post and the other in TGTBTG, I would be "foolish", "ridiculous" "a worker" etc.

That's a lot to consider. I remember the good old days when I wanted to buy a trick, I only had to consider whether it would fit my style or not. And I already have an idea in place for a series of Christmas performances I am doing where I would pluck the light off a Christmas tree and have it just go nuts......

So much to consider now....what to do, what to do.
joeyjojo
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English is not my first language but I was able to understand that this topic is NOT about the delight routine. why do people not read the posts carefully?
Michael Dustman
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Because this post was inspired by the D'Lite routine...it was started as a way to discuss the broader point of magic and pricing in general, because we felt it was unfair to continue discussing this in the D'LIte thread under the Good, the Bad, and the Garbage becaause we weren't reviewing the product, we were slamming the price.

So rather than go back to that post which I sill don't have a review for the product, I came to this one, knowing that it was started on the basis of the discussion on the other thread.

Your english is fine, it's your sarcasm that is out of whack.
Julie
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Bish,

Wonderful posts--there are more of us out here who "get it"--most are silent because you've said it all!
bishthemagish
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Thank you Julie...

Bish
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Big Daddy Cool
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Quote:
On 2004-09-03 13:55, whithaydn wrote:
When I was young, I went into a magic shop. There weren't glass counters filled with stuff, in fact, although old posters and 8 x 10's were on the wall and strange magic props were on shelves, there was nothing with a price tag, and no signs identifying anything.

The gruff old guy behind the counter greeted me with, "What do you want?" "I'm looking for a billiard ball holder." "What do you want to do with that?" "I want to use it to steal a billiard ball." "You do billiard balls? Let me see something."

He gave me a ball and shell, and I did some moves. After watching for a minute without any expression, he said, "Yeah, I got one somewhere" and turned and went rummaging through some cardboard boxes. He came back with some bent wire soldered on a safety pin.

"What's it worth to you?" "A lot." "It's 45 dollars." I must have looked really crestfallen. He said, "How much you got?" I said fifteen dollars. "You give me fifteen for this?" I said, "Sure." He tossed it on the counter. "Its yours. Two bucks."

It was Al Flosso.

If you don't think a thumbtip is actually worth a thousand dollars, then you don't understand the value of a thumbtip.


Wow. Well said Whit. These kind of discussions make me tired. Most amatuers and hobbyists, just don't understand the value of magic the same way that a seasoned, working, full time pro does.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am not dissing the amatuer or hobbyist. I was both once. I am just pointing out that experience shapes our perspectives. Amatuers and hobbyists have a vastly different perscpective from the pro because their experiences are vastly different.

Recently purchased a prop to accomplish a very specific effect. it wasn't a fortune, but it wasn't cheap either. It is a cool prop. Beuatiful and ingenius... It was completely unuseable. It could never fit my purposes. Some would be ****ed at the sitch. It actually helped me by showing me what DOESN'T work. I then took what I learned turned it around and built my own prop from scratch to accomplish the effect. Was it worth it to waste the money for a worthless prop? For me, it was not only worth it, it was vital. THAT is how a pro looks at things.

Price? If a prop or routine fits my character and needs, then price is irrelevant. Period.
We'll catch ya on the Back of the Cereal Box!
John Pyka
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meilechl
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Had you asked an owner of a Rolls 10 years ago if his car's worth the price, he's probably have answered in the affirmative. Now, however, due to competition from BMW, Daimler and the likes, the price has fallen greatly. The reason for this is the price was based on value (overpriced for the status symbol) and not on cost + profit. The only way we'll see how much this routine (or any other overpriced one) is really worth is through competition. If someone would release a D'lite routine which is as good as this one for only $2000, would the price of the first still be $4500? I highly doubt it. Some things, however will never be sold cheaper because their price is set according to cost (barring, of course, cheap labour in China).

Quote:
On 2004-09-13 22:17, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
Price? If a prop or routine fits my character and needs, then price is irrelevant. Period.


Why? Are you made of money? What if it suits your character and needs but costs $5,000,000? Would the price still be irrelevant? Admitted that you like your job and the overall art of magic, but don't you have any financial considerations?
Big Daddy Cool
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Oh, there are financial considerations. I am not made of money, but if I need or what an effect that fits the show, and is within my budget, I'll spend the money and not think twice. If it is outside my budget, I wait until it is, or my budget increases.
We'll catch ya on the Back of the Cereal Box!
John Pyka
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Jonathan Townsend
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We are confounding issues of commodities versus custom crafts.

How much is a light bulb? (worth in dollars or trade )

How much does it cost to build a light bulb?

How much does it cost to create and maintain the technology needed to support the manufacture of light bulbs one at a time?

How much (same as above) but say in runs of 1000?

There is an economy of scale.

And there is an economy of secrets.

So, consider yourself back in the stone age for a moment, say you could wank through a door and be there okay?

Now, what is the value of that TT? or a working flashlight? On our side of the door, just commodities. On their side of the door... something else. And on their side of the door all the technology that is involved with light bulbs and TTs is also secret. Both the existence and infrastructure are all secret.

Now, what is the value of a TT or that flashlight?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
salsa_dancer
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Quote:
On 2004-09-14 16:58, meilechl wrote:

Quote:
On 2004-09-13 22:17, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
Price? If a prop or routine fits my character and needs, then price is irrelevant. Period.


Why? Are you made of money? What if it suits your character and needs but costs $5,000,000? Would the price still be irrelevant? Admitted that you like your job and the overall art of magic, but don't you have any financial considerations?



I think the simple answer to that question meilechl is if he cannot afford he cannot have it. The Aston Martin DB7 suits my character and needs perfectly, but I can't afford one so I have to make do with what I have until I can.

On the other hand I could design and build my own unique high performance car. All I would need to do is research for a couple of years, invest the time I have to learn how to craft it and then go for it. Sound familiar?

How is this discussion still going? Surely it is clear cut, a product or service is created, a price is put on it, those that can afford it buy it, those that can't don't. Surely this is our day to day life?
Tom Cutts
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This very topic is a classic example of where the problem lies. There are people here who are getting all excited over something which does not pertain to them. On top of that there is some totally unfounded, gross misinformation being tossed out in an attempt to make a point. In the end all that does is serve to invalidate the point.

Suffice to say, if you would not buy a professional routine and all the props for $4,500.00, then this really does not concern you, period. It doesn’t matter if it appears in a “hobbyist’s magazine”. Your opinion has no bearing on this. Most of the people involved in “dissing” this product simply wouldn’t pay $4,500 for any routine. Not all but most. It simply doesn’t fit their need, and guess what… this product was never meant for them. Move on, there are lots and lots of wonderful routines within your fiscal capabilities. Don’t get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with having fiscal limitations. Everyone has them and everyone’s will be different to one degree or another. It is a little like asking the Fries Guy at McDonald’s to comment on Jacque Peppin’s new cook book.

Now about this misinformation, or as I like to call it “fast food for thought”. (Seems like food but it really has little nutritional value.) The claim was made that due to competition from BMW and Daimler, the price of Rolls Royces had “fallen greatly”. I checked, and you can too because I included a source link list at the bottom of this post, “Rolls is holding the price line on the Phantom at $324,000”. Wow, $324,000! I wonder what it was ten years ago before it “fell greatly”. Actually, I don’t wonder, because as a foolish car nut I had looked into the price of a new Rolls in the early 90’s. While my interest was only passing fancy, and the exact number could very well be off by a few ten’s of thoundands of dollars, I recall it was about $250,000… or roughly the price of Ferrari or Lamborghini at the time. They are still similarly priced which tells you something about what people with massive disposable incomes are willing to part with for a car of true unique value. It would be my experience that the price of Rolls Royces has increased, not decreased. If anyone has factual data to refute that I would love to read it. I have yet to find a source for list pricing on Rolls from the early 90s.

What a price, though!!! SO, here are some facts about Rolls. The cars are hand built and each one has hundreds of custom options, hand done at the factory. Slow built by hand with attention to detail is something which many folks will pay extra for. And look here, “Today (8th September 2004) the one thousandth Rolls-Royce Phantom will be built to customer order at the company’s new manufacturing plant in Goodwood, England.” Yup, they build these cars in small numbers not mass production. That equates to very meticulous attention to detail. So much so that Rolls’ slogan, “The quality remains long after the price is forgotten” has caused some to find, “…many luxury car officianados consider the best motorcar ever produced: the Rolls Royce”. And you know what else. They only make one model currently, the Phantom.

But lets put all that aside and look deeper into the claims of “competition”. Car and Driver states that the Rolls’ only credible competition is the Maybach, built by Mercedes-Benz, which has two models, one a little less than the Rolls and one a little higher. To further the point, BMW was sighted as competition. I’m guessing the person who stated that had no idea that BMW owns Rolls Royce and while it would be enough to think that the thought of creating competition for product within your company would be counter productive, it would be more prudent to realize that BMW does not have a hand built, production “ultra-luxury” vehicle in the $300,00 range; so as Car and Driver said, The Maybach is the only real competition for Rolls.

It just goes to show that you need to know either the credibility of the person posting or the credibility of what has been posted. Otherwise you are just reading idle gossip and assumptions. So read the links I included. None of them are very long, but they are very informative if you are interested in knowing a little about Rolls Royce automobiles.


http://www.petersen.org/default.cfm?docid=1022
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?......_id=8596
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?......_id=8609
http://www.carpages.co.uk/rolls_royce/ro......9_04.asp

Cheers,

Tom
Big Daddy Cool
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"Oh! an Atomic Drop followed by a Gorilla Press Slam!"

Bravo, Tom!
We'll catch ya on the Back of the Cereal Box!
John Pyka
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meilechl
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In Exchange & Mart used cars magazin......a link):

Quote:
WHAT YOU PAY
Time was when if you needed to know the price of a Rolls-Royce you probably couldn’t afford one. Fortunately, hard commercial reality has finally hit Rolls-Royce fairly and squarely in the chrome-plated teeth. No longer able to trumpet their status as manufacturers of the world’s best cars, the marque is now forced to compete on a level playing field with upstart rivals from Mercedes, BMW and Daimler. Used valuations reflect this. If you paid £155,000 for a new Silver Seraph in 1998, you’ll have lost a good proportion of this in depreciation. A 1998 R-registered Silver Seraph is now worth in the region of £54,600, whilst a 1999 T-plated car will fetch around £60,500. This may sound catastrophic, but put in context with, say a Mercedes S600 and after three years the Rolls retains 55% of its value compared to around 40% for the supposedly bulletproof Benz. This teaches us that even when swanking furiously behind the wheel of a Silver Seraph it pays to keep a sense of perspective.
Jonathan Townsend
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Does this mean that today you can trade your Rolls for a larger number of those dlite setups and professional routines than last year?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Stuart Hooper
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Just so everyone is aware, one guy is talking pounds, and Tom is talking dollars.
Jonathan Townsend
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Maybe we should all convert to Euros?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
meilechl
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What will I do with my folding 10p and half dollar?
Tom Cutts
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Interesting take you have Meilechl on a generally positive pitch for the car maker. A pitch which starts “Though it may no longer be able to justify its existence as the best car in the world, a Rolls-Royce undoubtedly has something that other cars lack. Seat yourself behind that long bonnet and glimpse the Spirit of Ecstasy at the end and you know you’ve definitely arrived. Some may argue that you’ve arrived fairly and squarely at planet naff, but what would they know?” all leaving me agreeing, “What do you know?”

You make claims about the price of a Rolls Royce not being based on “cost + profit” and how much that price has decreased but these examples you have presented are about the resale value of a used Rolls and have nothing to do with its current list price. Interesting the comparison you linked is between buying a used Rolls and a new Mercedes. The article you linked also states, “in context with, say a Mercedes S600… after three years the Rolls retains 55% of its value compared to around 40% for the supposedly bulletproof Benz.” So we can surmise that Mercedes is worse off, in your mind, than Rolls. and therefore “Had you asked a Merces owner ten years ago…” Such immaterial statements I will leave to others. Smile

Anyhow, you can take minutia and spin it anyway you want. Those who read the full articles under your Rolls link will see:

“The Silver Seraph marks a new start for Rolls-Royce in their quest to once more be recognised as manufacturers of the world’s best cars. And it’s quite a credible effort.”

“For the price of a new Mercedes S-class, a BMW 750 or a Daimler, you could have a previously owned Rolls Royce – from a Rolls Royce dealer. Well worth considering - if you have the means. A Rolls Royce, after all, is handcrafted, not mass-produced. And the feeling you get at the wheel of one is like nothing else.”

“All around you, there’s craftsmanship that would send the Antiques Roadshow team into sheer ecstasy.”

Again for teh rest of you, know your source and do your homework or you might just be basing your impressions on idle gossip and baseless claims.

Cheers,

Tom
meilechl
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Am I missing something or is this discussion about magic. I only brought a Rolls into the picture as an analogy. If you think the facts are slightly different, fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but what's that got to do with the point I'm making?

If something has a certain price because 'that's how much it's worth' (and nothing to do with the cost of production), why is it that when faced with competition the price falls? Is it now worth less or was it just overpriced in the first place?

In thus instance, had the routine been sold for $4000, wouldn't there have been plenty of people who'd feel that it's worth the money? If so, is it overpriced? Conversely, had it been worth $5000 you'd still have seen people sticking up for the price, does that make it underpriced? It's impossible to contest the term overpriced when the price is set according to value.
Jonathan Townsend
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Re: It's impossible to contest the term overpriced when the price is set according to value.

We are close to agreeing on terms with that line. I hold that price offered by the seller is bases upon marketing interests. Pricing factors include scarcity issues, IE how many units desired to sell.

Two people have to agree upon a price for there to be a deal. The seller and the buyer. They have distinct interests. The seller (non-monopolistic) wishes to get the best (highest) price for the goods. The buyer wants to get the best price (lowest) for the goods. The seller may be factoring in the total estimated value of his time and resources used to make these (say 100 units will be sold) items.

How are we doing?


PS monopolistic = grestest area under demand curve... a bit more complicated idea. wants to sell the most units at each price that they can be sold (sometimes not even profitably = !! )
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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