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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Help on Goshman pinch (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2004-09-06 14:16, wsduncan wrote:


The one handed toss change where a coin is seen on the fingers, tossed into the air and when it lands ON THE SAME HAND it has changed to a different coin is considerably more direct when using the York method.
Agreed. Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
joef90
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Can anyone enlighten me as to why you would use a Goshman pinch over a backclip? It seems to me that the backclip is more angleproof and more easy to get in and out of. Or am I not seeing the whole picture?
Adam Keisner
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Think of backpalming a card, then try it with a coin, only unlike with a card your index finger does nothing.
rowdymagi5
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Practice with a single coin at first, then start working on getting into and out of the pinch with other coins in the hand.

Every once in a while, you will inevitably drop one, be sure to have an "out" ready! I usually say (when doing a coins across), "see, the coins are flying so fast one fell!" They are still amazed as to how the coin got to your hand in the first place!
wsduncan
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Quote:
On 2004-09-09 08:31, joef90 wrote:
Can anyone enlighten me as to why you would use a Goshman pinch over a backclip?

Well, assuming you mean why would one use the Tenkai back clip over the "deep" back clip used by Vernon, Rosenthal, Roth etc. the answer is that some routines simply work better using that method.

There's no edge to hide as there is for most people with Deep Back Clip, so you don't have to have a covering coin or object.

If the coin is large like a half or a dollar the Tenkai clip has somewhat better angles becase the coin is closer to the back of the fingers. Half dollars in deep back clip can be seen across a room but I can cover a Tenkai clipped half or quarter so they're not seen.

Most important, the action to move the coin into and out of clip is different and may be easier to routine into the flow of action. For example:

In a coin assembly that I used to do I have to pick up a quarter from lower left corner the mat and vanish it. It is very easy to pick up the coin with my fingers and move it into Tenkai clip (via the "backpalming" action) and then do a fake take with my left hand. The audience sees me pick up the coin, sees the fingers CASUALLY empty and at the moment the coin vanishes from the left fingertips it's moved from Tenkai clip to classic palm (or fingertip rest for loading). I wouldn't use Deep Back Clip there because the actions necessary to put the coin there would make the knuckle "pop" in a way that would create a tell.

Hope that helps,
bill
cloneman
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Sankey shows some good ways to get into the pinch on "Revolutionary Coin Magic."
"Anything is possible... if you don't know what you are talking about."
joef90
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Wsduncan,
No, I was thinking of a less deep back clip in a Paul Cummins sort of way! The method for getting in and out of it seems to be like the Goshman/Tenkai method except the coin ends up between the middle and ring finger opposed to the ring and pinky--thus giving the coin a more central position in the hand (more cover from the pinky side).
joseph
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Now that we know how to get into the grip, what are your favorite methods of getting out of it? This really presents some problems for me, and I have big hands. It must be a knack.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Einstein)...
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2004-09-10 10:20, joseph wrote:
Now that we know how to get into the grip, what are your favorite methods of getting out of it? This really presents some problems for me, and I have big hands. It must be a knack.
Hmmm...it is maybe even easier then getting into it; just reverse the actions, meaning, IF you do the pitch like when backpalming a coin -just without using the forefinger as a support for the coin- just *play* you are retrieving the coin out of the backpalm.
Simply turn your palm up hand inward toward your body, so the back of your hand is upwards and towards the specs. *Grib* the coin into the classic palm.

Normally this should be done during some other action, like picking up a coin from the table.

Actually I never found it that hard, but I well know that things are different for different people.

One note: I'm NOT that skillful. What I can do, anybody can!
So just keep the faith and practise a little. Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
wsduncan
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Joe,
I'm familiar with Paul's work. I just spent some time with him at PCAM and finally got around to purchasing his DVD Up In Smoke (PLUG! PLUG! PLUG!).

Those same points apply. You have to consider how to block the actions, what your angles are and how you'll cover the edge. I have rather thin fingers and if I angle the coin enough that it can't be seen (in the forward type of back clip Paul uses) then it's not held very securely and I have to be cautious about what I do. I can secure a coin in Tenkai pinch pretty well and still keep it concealed. In fact, when I do Paul's "The Invisible Hand" I use the Tenkai clip because it's more secure for me and easier to get into (York-style) than back clip is.

But that's how MY hands work.
Gidon
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I sympathize with your problems regarding the pinch. I have the easiest time doing it in my left hand. But I broke my right pinky and ring finger a long time ago and my muscles over there do not want to cooperate. This sucks since I'm right handed and do all the sleights over there.

As an alternative, I supplement a lot of pinch stuff with Kainoa Harbottle's edge grip stuff. Look into his edge work and you'll notice that a lot of the changes (X for X and his C/S stuff) afford you the same open/cleanliness as a pinch and is easier to get in and out of at times. Kainoa talks a lot about reworking routines to utilize edge grip. This is the real power of an edgy approach to coin work I think, the ability to make all the old stuff cleaner, more open, and in Kainoa's case a lot stranger.

Granted it's not for everyone. But if you're like me and feel comfortable in edge grip and enjoy the novelty of it then give it a go. My latest diversion from work is trying to rework the second half of New York Spell Bound and all of Triple Alliance into edge grip. Okay I cheat a little and still use a pinch for one sequence of Triple Alliance but it just looks so nice. Anyway enough from me. Good luck.

-Chris
Chris Harland
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joef90
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Wsduncan,
I will second that, the "Up in Smoke" DVD is well worth a plug-cunning stuff!
I feel I don't know enough about the Tenkai pinch (yet) so it looks like I need the hardback version of Bobo's.
Thanks for the insight -interesting stuff!
magicbymccauley
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I would like to state here that I think y'all are crazy. I think the Goshman pinch is freakin' hard, and no, I'm not doing it wrong. Different things are difficult for different people. A lot of the things I do are considered exceptionally hard by some people, but for me they're easy as pie. I don't understand post where people are like "backpalming is easy," "the pass is easy" and such. If these things are easy, then what on earth is hard?
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2004-09-15 01:19, magicbymccauley wrote:
If these things are easy, then what on earth is hard?
A decent and deceptive center deal...like Fred Robinson did!

I'm not talking about the fake center deals where the card is already partly out, lying across the cards and bevelled longside--kind of like a Greek deal.
I'm talking about a REAL center deal!
An undetectable one.
I've seen it done...by Fred Robinson!
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
magicbymccauley
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That's not "advanced"; that's MASTER CLASS. If you're talking about a real center deal, you're talking about a move that can only be done by a few people in the world! Sheesh. Do you include rolling five half dollars over your knuckles? Juggling 10 balls at once? I said "advanced," not "superpowers"!
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven
Werner G. Seitz
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The Goshman/Tenkai pinch isn't advanced coin handling...it's (almost) basic.

Only my opinion.

The riffle pass, in the style done by Derek Dingle and a lot of others, with all respect to him, isn't advanced either, but the riffle pass done by Fred Robinson (entirely different method) isn't that advanced either. Though doing it the way, as deceptive as he did it, IS difficult, though not impossible.

The center deal, if doing it as he did, is simply impossible for most.
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
rowdymagi5
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I agree. Some things come easy and others difficult depending on the person. The Striking Vanish, Goshman Pinch, Elmsley came very very easy to me. However, the basic double lift (while holding a full deck of cards) took me forever to make look good!
Pete Biro
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You have to remember, Robinson, like a few others, had a job where he could be doing his job and be shuffling, dealing, faroing, etc. all day long.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Werner G. Seitz
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Yes, I know. Fred was a railroad man and had a lot of spare time to practice his stuff.

I know you have seen his work and I'm sure you agree that his center deal was out of this world, as was his riffle pass and a lot of other things he did.

Actually, for some strange reason he liked me. We first met at Liege/Belgium at a convention around 1962 or so.

When we met in Paris in 1973, I didn't fail to ask him to--once again--do his centers.

INCREDIBLE!!

He was just perfect and the deck he used was a well worn one that others would throw away.

His daughter Annabel also is/was a very nice girl. I always loved the English ladies. Oh well, I was married by that time. Smile

I also met Fred at Ken Brooke's place once. I think it was in 1978. Derek Dingle was there too and we later corresponded a little--that is Fred and me--regarding signed card to wallet and that kind of stuff.

He simply was a great guy.

Martin Breese is soon (hopefully) finishing a book "The Magic of Fred Robinson" and I truly hope the people writing it DO know a lot about his handling of his stuff.

For example, at another convention, at a private party for a few invited people (I think it was in Bologna), Fred did his vanishing coin from tie.

THAT was the absolute best version I've ever seen and if and when I find time, I simply want to reconstruct it. I can still remember the details.

As you might know, he used sleeving, but due to the way he did it was covered by excellent (what I call) "handling" misdirection.

Bobby Bernard did describe a version in his own book, but that couldn't even barely touch the expert way Fred Robinson did it and didn't involve sleeving either.

I hope you have seen Fred doing it...it was outstandingly clever.

Those where the days my friend...great performers/perfectionists...unfortunately no longer with us.

Wonder how Annabel is these days. She must be in her early 50's, no doubt still a very nice lady. Smile

BTW, I PM'ed you regarding a certain presentation idea I came up with...have a look please.
Remember, never on Sundays... Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
wdmonroe
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If I can I would like to offer my two cents. A monetary conotation; LOL. You can find good explanations of Goshman/Tenkai pinch in Jay Sankey's Sankey-Tized II; & Revolutionary Coin Magic; Curtis Kam's Palms of Steel I. Now, Paul Cummins has a variation of the move that I think is a little easier to get in and out of. He also has some very good routines for the move. It is all explained in his Up in Smoke video/dvd. Hope this helps. Cheers

Bill
as you help others; you in turn help yourself.
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