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scorch
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Quote:
On 2006-01-30 02:53, dafin77 wrote:
But in Mneumonica, getting into stack order with American cards requires a lot of running of cards singly.


In a real world situation, all you need to do is to open a card box, take the cards out, spread them, and show them in the European NDO which is the easy starting point to get into Mnemonica. Point out to the audience that the cards are in new deck order, and that's all there is to it. You can perform for years and years to thousands of spectators before anybody would ever call you on it not being in *American* new deck order. Then do the faros and spread the cards when they are in Mnemonica to show they are completely shuffled and random. For all intents and purposes, you will have satisfactorily proven to your audience that you have completely shuffled a deck that was in new deck order.

Literally the only time when the issue is of any consequence is when you actually are taking a deck out of the store and opening the shrinkwrap in front of the specs, and how often does that happen? If opening the shrinkwrapping in front of the audience is a high priority for you (I can't imagine why it would be - it takes a long time, is boring to watch, slows the momentum, isn't necessary, and doesn't add hardly anything in terms of credibility), then you could always get a bicycle deck into European NDO, add the jokers and Texas Hold'em instruction back in, and shrinkwrap the deck again. Or, you can use a razor blade to open the shrinkwrap from the bottom, and carefully take the wrap off so you can put it back on and seal it up with some invisible tape. At the bottom of the deck it will never be seen or questioned, since you will be opening it from the top. You can even buy those little stickers that hold the box flap closed.

Trust me, the American/Euro NDO issue with Mnemonica is a big fat non-issue.
dafin77
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Thanks, Scorch. There is still this: it's just easier to get from a 5-foro'ed deck to *any* sort of NDO (granting that getting to European NDO is as good as getting to American) than it is from Mneumonica order. And (less significantly)--even if spectators aren't around--it's less of a bother to take a new deck and do 5 faros than to get into Mneumonica order. I take that you don't think either of these considerations outweighs the built-in advantages of Mneumonica? Even if I'm not all that fond of gambling demos? (I admit that "Not all that fond" doesn't mean I would never do one, or even that I never do.)


Posted: Jan 30, 2006 4:05pm
----------------------------------------
One other point that occurs to me: my practice has not been to open decks in front of spectators. I use open decks in pretty good condition. But: some of what one does with a memorized deck might, it seems to me, suggest marked cards to spectators. And it might be that a way to make them worry less about this is to let them see the deck being opened. Why? Well--one is treating the cards as cheap--after all you're opening new decks pretty often. And, the spec might think (rightly), marked cards must cost a bit more than ordinary ones. Maybe they even need to be marked after they are open. Also, the spectator sees that this deck has the two crappy little extra advertising cards, and the extra joker--stuff that (one imagines) wouldn't come in a marked deck. Opening a new deck doesn't prove that the cards aren't marked of course, but I do think it would be reassuring.
David Finkelstein
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scorch
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Quote:
On 2006-01-30 15:57, dafin77 wrote:
Thanks, Scorch. There is still this: it's just easier to get from a 5-foro'ed deck to *any* sort of NDO (granting that getting to European NDO is as good as getting to American) than it is from Mneumonica order. And (less significantly)--even if spectators aren't around--it's less of a bother to take a new deck and do 5 faros than to get into Mneumonica order. I take that you don't think either of these considerations outweighs the built-in advantages of Mneumonica?


Correct. Mnemonica setup from European NDO is only a small matter of degree more involved than five faros. In fact there are a total of five faros, plus a run of cards and a cut. Not much more for what you get in exchange.

Quote:
Even if I'm not all that fond of gambling demos? (I admit that "Not all that fond" doesn't mean I would never do one, or even that I never do.)


Do you have Tamariz' book on the subject? There are a great many effects that are possible than just gambling demos. To me that's the real genius of Tamariz, that he completely blew the doors off of the typical kinds of effects that have been done with memdeck stacks.
Tim Sutton
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Tamariz' book is an absolute treasure trove - info on using the half stack, assembling stack from a shuffled deck - multiple approaches to classic effects - the fabulous 'mnemonicosis' and 'control in chaos', all of which are compatible with any stack. as I use the aronson stack, I haven't yet steeled myself to learn mnemonica for the sake of those specific effects, but one day, who knows..

tim
Noel D
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The only stack I know is the 8 kings deck, and I think it is a great stack. Although I'm sure there are better stacks to know, the 8 kings stack is a good first one since it takes about 10 minutes or so to learn the phrase, then you have it for life.
dafin77
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Scorch: Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. I do have Tamariz's book, and I spent some time this afternoon reading through the effects that are Mneumonica-specific. There *are* some appealing ones that are not gambling things. (And the gambling stuff is not completely unappealing to me.)

Just to be clear: I'm already convinced that Tamariz's book is full of great stuff--"a treasure trove"--as Netguzzler put it. The only question for me is whether the Mneumonica-specific bits of the book--which don't take up nearly so many pages as the stack-independent bits--warrant working with the M-stack, as opposed to another one that (unlike, say, Aronson's) gets you easily (a bit *more* easily than Mneumonica does) to NDO or to stay-stack, viz., a five-faro from NDO stack (or a small variation thereon). If I hear you, Scorch, you think the Mneumonica-specific effects *do* warrant the bit of extra work that comes with using Mneumonica instead of 5-faro. (Another point about this: from 5-faro order, it's only 3 faros to NDO. From Mneumonica, it's 4 plus some running, if I'm remembering what I read. If I'm facing spectators, I'd rather do 3 faros than 4 plus running. But Tamariz does have a dealing-into-multiple-piles alternative to doing all the faros.) I'm inclined to believe what you say about this--so I'm leaning toward the Mneumonica stack. Buy I'm still hoping to hear from others before I make this commitment. (I guess my girlfriends have been right about me and commitment...)
David Finkelstein
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jecar
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Here's a neat little program to help in memorizing stacks. It comes with a few stacks and you can create your own and use it to practice stacks,

http://www.stackview.com/

Jerry
..
Tim Sutton
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Dafin -

From what you're saying it seems that you're very keen on the 'unshuffling' aspect of Mnemonica (not Mneumonica - that sounds like a lung complaint). In which case learn it. Especially if it's your first stack. I don't think the extras in Tamariz's stack make it that much more attractive than the Aronson stack. You have to be really committed to a routine working with the stacked deck to make working back to NDO worth your while. I would rather ring in a 5-faro stack and go from there.

tim
dafin77
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Tim: You're right; *Mneumonica* does sound like a lung complaint (one that you get from playing too much harmonica). Thanks for correcting me; I don't want to keep doing that. Also, I have two questions about your post:

1) I'm not sure I understood the last couple of sentences in it. Are you saying: it's not a big deal that Mnemonica allows you to get to NDO b/c one can always just switch in a deck that's a couple of faros away from NDO?

2) You said you don't think the extras in Tamariz's stack make it much more attractive than the Aronson stack. This could be b/c you don't think the extras are worth much of anything, or b/c you think that Aronson and Tamariz both provide valuable extras. If you mean the former, then, I take it, you would say that one might as well just memorize the order of a five-faroed deck (or some variation on that). Is this what you think? Or do you think, rather, that either the Aronson or Mnemonica would be significantly better than a five-faro stack, but that neither of these two is much better than the other?
-David
David Finkelstein
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Tim Sutton
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Hi David,

I think the unshuffling aspect of Mnemonica is wonderful, and if this is something that you feel you want to become an important part of your routine, then Mnemonica may be for you. I can't speak with authority on the other extras - not having learned the stack myself. I can see however that they only take up sixteen pages of a 350-page book. Juan's thinking on the memorized deck in general is of far more importance than the hidden extras. Similarly, I work with the Aronson stack, and although I know the 'extras' it contains, I can't say I use them with any regularity (although they are really nice!). I think that being able to assemble from NDO and disassemble to NDO would be far more attractive to me if it worked with the American order that one is used to in the UK. It all depends on your preference - if working with one deck only and have it transform from mem-deck to NDO is what you want to do, Mnemonica would seem to be ideal for you. I usually switch between three or four different decks in the course of a routine, and so keeping to the stack I know and ringing in another stack is something I'm comfortable with.

Hope this clarifies to some extent!

Keep away from those harmonicas. Smile

Tim

P.s. - There are other opinions on this thread and others:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&forum=2

Tim




Quote:
On 2006-02-01 04:31, netguzzler wrote:
Keep away from those harmonicas Smile

Tim

In the words of Richard Stilgoe, you may survive the blowin', but the suckin's gonna get you in the end..
Magic333
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I usually go with the large stack by IHOP
Paul Chosse
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I hear all the waitresses there have one leg that is shorter than the other leg, is this true?

Best, PSC
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magico
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Yes and they are all named Eileen.
StuartNolan
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For those of you with Apple Macs there is a program called Mental Case for flash card style learning http://mac.softpedia.com/progDownload/Me......040.html
If you have iSight you can take snapshots of your self holding up the card. The 30day trial should be long enough to learn a mem-deck so you wont even have to pay.

I was using mnemonica but only for a short time and and after not using it for nearly a year a lot of it has fallen out of my head (a fault of my memory and not the Tamariz methods I assure you). I'm using Mental Case to help get it back in my head.

s
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Review King
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A good friend told me about the Osterlind Breathrough Card System. I told him I tried memorized stacks and couldn't do it and just got frustrated with them. He wouldn't let up on the miracles he performed and how dead easy it was.

So...I go and get it. I Didn't look at it for a week. Then I started to read it. I'm dyslexic and was prepared to put it down when BAM-it made so much sense. In fact, I was in awe on how it could have been created. It's so easy to learn. Within an hour I had it down. Then I took a week to be able to go through the deck rapidly and acurately before performing with it.

Performing with it is a dream. I mean instantly you know the card ( or cards ) you need for an effect.

http://osterlindstore.com/catalog/produc......20755f6b

I performed for a couple and it turns out her husband was a bit of a card man ( very good black jack player ) and knew a little about magic. The wife asked him how I did it and he said he didn't know. He checked the deck and in his words "I thought maybe the deck was stacked but it's not. I have no idea how he did it".
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
Scott Cram
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Quote:
On 2007-06-11 13:49, StuartNolan wrote:
For those of you with Apple Macs there is a program called Mental Case for flash card style learning http://mac.softpedia.com/progDownload/Me......040.html
If you have iSight you can take snapshots of your self holding up the card. The 30day trial should be long enough to learn a mem-deck so you wont even have to pay.

I was using mnemonica but only for a short time and and after not using it for nearly a year a lot of it has fallen out of my head (a fault of my memory and not the Tamariz methods I assure you). I'm using Mental Case to help get it back in my head.

s


Speaking of Mental Case, it's on sale at this writing. Normally it's $29.00, but for a limited time, you can get it for $15.95.

Of course, my favorite free program for memorizing would be Ebbinghaus 1.5, which has similar capabilities. It's interface is very familiar to anyone who has ever worked with iTunes.
Billgussen
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Quote:
On 2008-03-01 00:22, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
Performing with it is a dream. I mean instantly you know the card ( or cards ) you need for an effect.


You must be very good with math because I never "instantly" knew the card with the system. It always took a bit of mental gymnastics and routining in some time for me to work the formula through to get the next card. Eventually, I gave up on the math and memorized the entire stack.

Don't get me wrong. It's a great stack. And I'm thankful the math exists as a backup for when my memory fails me (I don't perform everyday, so my memory can fail me pretty often). But it takes a certain kind of mind to be able to internalize the math as quickly as you imply. My mind isn't that type. I'm envious.

Bill
edh
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I would have to agree with Bill. The Aronson stack is best for me. No type of calculations involved, and it wasn't as hard to memorize as I initially thought it would be.
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Dennis Loomis
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I agree with edh. If you just get down to memorizing your stack of choice, it's not as hard as it may appear up front. And whether you do it by rote, or use mnemonics, Tamariz "Sing Song" and other techniques, it is probably less work than mastering, for one example, a good one handed top palm.

You can't compare a memorized stack with the Osterlind BCS. While the BCS is a remarkable thing, it will not allow you to do all of the things that you can do with a memdeck. For example, how long would it take to calculate which card was ten or fifteen of twenty cards down in the deck. With a memdeck this is not only easy, but fast. With BCS you would have to calculate each and every card along the way.

Richard Osterlind does many wonderful effects with his stack, but if you actually memorize a stack like Aronson you can do the Osterlind effects and so much more.

Dennis Loomis
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todsky
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Of course, with Osterlind's BCS, you can memorize it as well, and then you have a mem/stack as well as a back-up in case memory fails you.
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