Recently in Japan, there are many crazy magicians who do Convincing Control and then do Riffle Shuffle.

More crazy things about them is that they use that combination of sleights several times in a performance.

If you can watch Japanese TV, you will soon see that, because they repeatedly perform the same routines in different TV programs.

Hideo Kato

I'm tired and I have nothing sensible to say,so I'll reply later.

The simpleler the better..... that's it

If its a pass then it doesn't really matter because no-body will see it, and it gives good practise.

however if you do get caught doing a 'move' (pass) when it isn't necessary then it will matter much less because you can give the cards an honest shuffle anyway.

however if you got caught doing a pass that was necessary youre gonna be in much worse situation.

ollie

Really???
The pass is a non existing strategy or at least it should be..
Shuffling the deck then, after a card is returned seems perfectly *normal* to me, as the pass doesn't exist!!!
What strange thougths from you pls site?
There is absolutely no logic in that statement mentioned by *cjmagicman*

Maybe it depends how your Pass is perfect. If your Pass is not good enough, it surely causes a suspicion on spectators even they don$B!G(Bt see what you exactly did.

As my Pass is not good enough, I hardly use Pass to control selection.

Even if I can do Pass in good enough way, I won$B!G(Bt use it to control selection because there are many good ways for controlling.

Of course I use Pass in ceretain situations where I need to shift a card without any seeming handling.

Hideo Kato

Yes, but what does trigger me is, Why at any time, it can be wrong to shuffle the deck shortly!

That actually was my main quorell...

A deck can get a shuffle anytime, no matter what happend before!
Weather one did a pass, good or bad!

Meaning, that even after a bad pass, a good and simple false shuffle (injog and shuffling the card back to top) will most certainly throw the specs of the track..

I simply can't understand anybody can postulate, it is bad to shuffle the deck (shortly)!!!

Pls. reread the postings, because as I read it, it was mentioned it was wrong to shuffle (after the pass)..

It is never wrong??????..

Seitz, my problem with performing a pass and then shuffling is not when the pass looks like nothing happened. If the magician has a proficient enough pass to where the audience detects that NOTHING happened, then if the magician wants to shuffle the cards afterwards that's fine. In this scenario it is no different than not doing a pass and then shuffling afterwards, because the audience is not aware of the pass.

What I'm talking about is when I see a magician get into that "hold the deck in a unnatural, death grip, cuz here I go" stance and then he performs a pass that is less than acceptable. I'm a strong believer in the fact that an audience can pick up on things like this. Even if they don't know exactly what happened, they know that SOMETHING did happen. In my mind, I think that lessens the effect. Even if the magician false shuffles a few times afterwards, the audience is still left with this weird feeling that something just happened.

Let's say that magician used the pass to control the card and then riffle shuffled the deck. Why couldn't he just use the riffle shuffle (that he's already using anyway) to control the card. The shuffling procedure would seem the same for the audience, but they wouldn't have to have that feeling that they saw something go down.

In my opinion, the magician would be better off using his preferred method of shuffling to control the card. It can be done with an overhand shuffle, hindu shuffle, riffle shuffle, and just about any other shuffle he wants. For me, the main reason to use a pass (as far as controlling a card goes) is to give the audience the impression that you haven't moved the cards, so their card HAS to be in the middle.

Everyone has their own opinion, and obviously there are exceptions to every rule. These are just my thoughts. I hope they are clear.

Thanks,
Caleb

The original post asked why a shuffle would follow a pass.

Here is a reason:

Let's say you have a card removed from an in-the-hands spread, put back, and then square the deck. During the square up you would catch a break above the card.

You can't immediately go into a shuffle, or a control could be sensed. This follows the logic of Phil Golstein's "The Pause That Convinces".

You could hold a break, but with a pause, you would need to maintain the break. Depending on the context this may be doable, but in some other situation maybe not. you could resort to a crimp, but you might as well have the laymen shuffle.

So, you use the pass, to free the deck from any suspition, and then you get the pause. Now go into the shuffle.

Shawn74 points out: It depends on the context. I agree I do not agree with that shuffling leads to a "showing skill" theme. Shuffling a selected card into the deck may not always lead to a "Skill" themed trick.

Steve Reynolds

Mr.Reynolds' explanation is very clear and pursuasive.

If your Pass is good enough, Pass, Pause and Shuffle would be a powerful combination to convince that the selection is completely lost.

Dribbling off on the selection, Pause and Shuffle is also a powerful combination.

I prefer the latter.

Hideo Kato

Very good point Steve. In circumstances like you mentioned I do believe it would be advisable to use a pass.

Caleb

Steve,
A fair looking shuffle could be "sensed" as something tricky but a pass wouldn't be?

This is a crucial point in this discussion.

So I wrote "If your Pass is good enough" in my former post.

Hideo Kato

If the spectator just sees the card by a pick. In this case you will mark the fact that nothing is happened, and it's wrong (imo) to do a shuffle or a simply cut after the pick. Just put the deck on the table if you want to shuffle and control the card with the shuffle.

Better than simply holding a break?

It MAY cause more problems to shuffle after a pass, Werner. Consider the spectator's state of mind, even at it's very best. A selection was returned to the middle of the deck.They know approximately where it is. If you shuffle, then it is possible that you have moved thier card to the top, or bottom, of the deck. This could happen accidentally, or on purpose. Either way, once you've moved the cards around, the spectator is no longer SURE that his selection is in the middle of the deck. So, the real question is: What do you want the spectator to THINK? Answer that question, and you will know what to do...

Best, PSC

I think I'm standing on your side.

'Good enough' means 'Completely invisible'.
I have seen very few magicians who can do Pass good enough.

I have written I don't use Pass to control a card. (Exception is the case in which I want to impress the selection is in the middle of the deck as Mr.Chosse mentioned).

Hideo Kato

Regarding superflous moves... Think. Is the move really really really necessary? Or is it just there to add confusion?

The audience always think that we are cheating... why give them another chance to confirm the fact that we "move" the card..and so that we can control the card...? when the magician shuffle the card in the deck.. how much the audience really think that the card is lost ? there will be always a little doubt.. anyway.. the point 4 me is that if you want to shuffle any pass or side still before it s superflous.. it s just one more thing that you do.. invisible or not..

Paul, what you say makes sense!! Of course it does!

BUT you se, it might be difficult to judge what ppl think..you, as a pro, do know that better then I do! (NO kidding!)

My thoughts just always have been, that after a selection is returned to the deck and the deck is shuffled (which should look 'fair' to the specs) this would confirm to them, the card was lost..

Let's take Johnny Paul..one of the greatest ever..
He does this (for magicians) lousy Blackstone card control, that NEEDS shuffling the cards!!!!!!!!

And here is the reason -amongst many other points- why I start off with Red Hot Mamma, whenever I do any cardroutine..

There is NO controll, everything is fair!!
I don't -of course- mention this, but my hands and guesturing indicates that nothing has gone on..

Then, when a control later is needed, they already have in mind *I do nothing*..and even a pass can go on unnoticed..

Another example is using the corner crimp when doing Francis Carlyles card transposition.. NOTHING obviously goes on..
They'll remember!!

They'll remember, I 'treat' them 'fair'..no trickery and so I can get away with an even not always too well done pass (under misdirection)..

I use the pass, I have to....it's part of the game to do it under fire, like it is forcing a card when not needed..

Just a few thoughts on this subject..
I NOT at all doubt your judgement, I just try to explain my own thoughts on this thing re shuffling AFTER a (hopefully invisible) pass is done..

ANY of your comments re this always are welcome, that's why I post me toughts and read others with interest..it IS to improve ones (mine) own thoughts if I'm on the wrong track and I sometimes (often?) am !!

Shuffling a deck is adding to confusion?

IMHO, a deck always should be shuffled after a card is inserted, well, let's say *normally* always shuffled

We are talking normal ppl here, not magicians knowing everything about false shuffles!