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Mike Walton Special user Chicago 984 Posts |
...scratching each others' backs for product or book reviews/testimonials?
...falsely crediting new techniques to members in the club even thought these techniques already exist amongst lesser known or other magicians? ...controlling who is in the industry spotlight? ...anywhere else? Aside from suspicions about the OBC taking its toll in product and book reviews and testimonials, I personally haven't seen any examples of the Old Boys Club/Network in magic, but I'm not quite "in the industry." Would be interesting to hear views from those working in or trying to get in the industry. Happy New Year! |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The market kind of does this. The ones who take the art seriously, etc., are less open to blurbing products. Here is a clue to finding a qualified opinion... look for the historical context of a work and what is novel in the work offered.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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drwilson Inner circle Bar Harbor, ME 2191 Posts |
Mike,
Well, OK, yes there is. Would you like to purchase a membership? I can accept payment on an easy installment plan. Yours, Paul |
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Jim Wilder Special user Birmingham, AL 954 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-12-30 08:59, Mike Walton wrote: Such is human nature in all things. |
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Mike Walton Special user Chicago 984 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-12-30 11:18, Jim Wilder wrote: These are my thoughts as well, so I'm wondering where the bias has been introduced. Posted: Dec 30, 2004 11:25am ------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2004-12-30 10:40, Jonathan Townsend wrote: So research and determine the truth and see who is fibbing. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I don't know whether there is an Old Boys Club in magic or not. I have often suspected that there are some groups of people who tend to gather around each other and be supportive of their own efforts, but I don't know if this is exactly what you mean.
For example, there is a group that is made up of guys who grew up in the junior club of the Magic Castle -- they tend to work together, and when products come out, they send the products to each other. Whether their familiarity with one another effects the reviews is another matter. The old guard at Magic Magazine, before John Moehring took over as editor was made up largely of people from this group. There are a couple of groups in New York City, but whether they let their close affiliation bias their reviews is, again, something that would need to be proven. There is a Chicago group. And there is a St. Louis group. Whether these groups promote their own members -- who knows? Some of the people from the Chicago group have moved to the lower East coast. I'm not a member of any of these groups. I've had my material reviewed by people from all of them, and generally it has been given favorable reviews. Whatever that means. Phil Willmarth, who is the present editor of the Linking Ring, is from Chicago. I've spoken to him about reviews (not of my own material) and I have discussed how difficult it is to give unbiased reviews. I can guarantee you that he does his best to be even-handed when he reviews books, etc. for the Linking Ring. The tightest of the Old Boys Clubs was the Magic Circle of London. They voted to let women in a few years ago, and they seem to have profited from it. I think their reviews have been rather well balanced. I know that Ali Bongo and Eddie Dawes are meticulous about attributions. They look for earliest appearances in print for evidence of what has gone on. So, this brings up something important. If you want credit for what you have invented, get it in print. Or write it up and put it in a dated notebook. But don't hide it. And don't show it to your friends, expecting them to keep it a secret. Someone down the line will turn it loose and get credit for it.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I have no idea if there is an old boys club in magic. The old timers that were friends of my Father - Don Alan - Jack Pyle - Jay Marshall and others - had a gret deal of respect for each other.
They would also spend time togeter. I think that it is abeacuse they had a lot on common with each other. Show business - age - fellow performers... Etc. They talked about the same agents and performers that they worked with and what they were doing now. Who invented what. Who ripped off waht... Business methods and a lot of other things... I have noticed being on the outside looking in that magic is a clicky art. The magicians do seem to enjoy to get together in groups at clubs and conventions. And yes I do see the fact that if the magician is in a group that if it is a group of magicians that put things out - if the material is good they will support each other... Vernon had the New York inner circle and that was an informal group of magician. There was also the Chicago round table another informal group that used to meet at a restaurant. I hear St. Louis has a group like that but I have not gone down to see who shows up... Groups or an old boys club in magic? Friendships?
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Sometimes it's hard to separate the friendships from the OBC's. And whether they are one and the same is hard to say as well.
It never hurts to make friends with as many of the groups as possible.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Let's not call it an old boys club. In theater how may times does an entertainer come on Jay Leno, or Letterman and say so-in-so sucks? It is common knowledge, from the moment you are on stage, you are being evaluated. Your next job may be from a viewer.
One can destroy their theater career in an instant by saying the wrong thing. Even here on the Café, words hurt even if they weren't meant to. If a product is good or I really like it I will say so. If NOT, I tread very carefully on what I post and sometimes that turns on me and bites me. Glen has felt the sting of the word as I have. Bill's posting are always warm educations and sometimes really funny. I haven't seen him talk bad about anyone, and I respect that. Crediting the wrong person...Well I'm far from a magical historian, so in this area, many of us can easily fall trap to that. Scratching each others back for product or book reviews/testimonials? If you don't ask you rarely get one. The secret to testimonials is ask for them. Whoooo is the entertainer who sits and waits for one while his competitor gets a ton of them. The difference one asked the other didn't. Un-requested testimonals are wonderful to get and many times they say the same thing as the requested one. I personally avoid giving a requested testimonal if I don't have anything nice to say.
Dennis Michael
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Maestro Special user 801 Posts |
So... where does the term "Old Boys Club" come from? I've never heard it before.
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Proabably Bars, after WWII lots of hang outs and story telling. Maybe jobs which were perdominately male, like Police and Fire Fighters.
Dennis Michael
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Rob Johnston Inner circle Utah 2060 Posts |
Next to small town politics, magic has the worst "Good Ol' Boys" in the world.
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Of course magic has an Old Boys' Club.
Just look at some of the magic magazines: X gets an award for this; then Z reviews this and praises it to the skies; but Z is appearing somewhere so Y has to heap plaudits on him; and so the circle continues. Frankly, it's rather tiresome. Magician A is invited to appears at Convention X; Convention Y, not wanting to be outdone, invites magicians A and B; Convention Z, wanting to top them both, invites magicians A, B, and C. The following year, they switch around. Did you ever wonder why it was that you never saw any really new or innovative acts at conventions that are supposed to be booking them? Sort of reminds me of the guy who said his company was looking for "fresh, new, bright, and original ideas that had been thoroughly tried and tested." And we wonder why magic is in such a sad state! |
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Jaxon Inner circle Kalamazoo, Mi. 2537 Posts |
One place to see that this is alive and well is at the Abbotts get together. Much respect is shown to those who are living and unfortuantely lost to us. The Percey Abbott Award. There is a group that wear matching shirts every year in honor of Karral Fox. Jay Marshell is still bringing down the house with his act. And of course the Backstones are all over the town of Colon Michigan.
I just felt this was relevant. Ron Jaxon |
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BlackShadow Special user London UK 666 Posts |
Yes there are old boy's clubs. Circles of people who continually scratch each other's back. This could be born out of long friendships, commercial reasons, or both. You can see this in the UK and on sites like Magic Café which is largely composed of US people from various areas. This is also true of many other sites on the net.
As newcomer to Magic Café I have seen it here, but I don't think it's any different to elsewhere in magic or otherwise in the real world. The market and human nature produce it. You soon learn to associate groups, and cut away much of the sycophantics to reveal the truth. When you see that many of the people from a certain area, who just happen to know each other in real life, and just happen to hold the same opinion, that opinion can generally be devalued. Wrongly in some instances, but on the grounds of probability, it's usually right to do so. Incidentally, I thought the term "old boys club" comes from the UK, where many of the posh schools and universities have "old boys clubs". Basically clubs you can only join if you went to that institution. Isn't it similar in the US with all those frats and things with greek letters At least it's easier to get 50 posts |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-01-06 18:38, Peter Marucci wrote: Magic isn't in a bad state... SOME MAGICIANS are in a bad state!!! Magic is fine and will continue on... Magicians performing magic and magic clubs and convention problems that are in a bad state? Who knows???
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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pikacrd Veteran user Florida 387 Posts |
Yes is the answer as I see it, but it is not much different than any other type of club or organization. Here is the theory that I subscribe to when thinking about this topic.
Assemble eight people in a room and what happens? The Alphas take over. As a result the ideas that are implemented in your company or group do not come from the good thinking. They come from the Alphas--The animals in any cluster that seize and hold the power. Are Alphas good at creative or strategic thinking? Not Necessarily. They are just good at seizing power. (Taken from Harry Beckwith’s book What Clients Love A Field Guide to Growing Your Business) How does this relate to magic you may ask, well the Alphas in magic are the ones who run the publications the ones who tend to get the word out to the rest of us. Does this mean that everything that they say regarding what is “good” or is “bad” is worth the paper or electronic document that it is drafted in? No not really just as it does not mean that they are great performers. Small groups will gather together in any club, profession, hobby, or company for any number of reasons and once they do it seems that they will attempt to tell the rest of us the “outsiders” if you will what is good or bad. What you have to decide is what or who you as a person want to listen to. For example I read a lot of reviews regarding Magic Books, DVD’s, and Tricks some of them good and some of them bad over the last few years I have concluded that in most cases, not all I find that Mike Close’s reviews work for me. Does this mean that his word is gospel to me nope as a matter of fact I have a few effects that I love that he panned in his review. I do tend to trust his work and reviews because of for the most part I do agree with him. I just use this as a starting point when doing my research on my next purchase. Good ‘ol’ Boy clubs exist that is a fact it may be very quiet or unspoken but they do exist it is a fact that a lot of back scratching goes on even here at the café. For example two members of the café who have participated in this thread seem to always back each other up all of the time regardless of what anyone says about them or there products, but if you go out side of the café a lot of there work is getting slammed, on both personal levels and professional levels. I have also done it I have people who I truly respect that participate here in the Café who I a quick to defend or promote and who defend and promote me, this is not all bad as long as what is being said is true. That is the thing about the Good ‘ol” Boy clubs it can be ok as long as the members are telling the truth and giving honest reviews to the other participants it only becomes a problem if the members are giving support to a product or person when they fully know that that product is bad or the person is less than par. Does this happen unfortunately I think that in magic it happens all of the time, here at the café and out in the rest of the magic world as well. It is up to you to figure out what is good for you.
“Indubitably, Magic is one of the subtlest and most difficult of the sciences and arts. There is more opportunity for errors of comprehension, judgment and practice than in any other branch of physics”. William S. Burroughs 1914-1997 American Writer
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BlackShadow Special user London UK 666 Posts |
Yes, you summed up my feeings well in your last two lines, pikacrd.
But, while recognising it exists, I don't think it is bad for magic in general. People do get to see through it quickly and no real harm is done. In fact, if it weren't for the friendship, and loyalty, many people who have given a lot to the magic word might have been discouraged so as to quit long ago. Some of us, like me, are lucky enough to enjoy magic as a hobby and maybe make a bit on the side here and there. For people in it full time, they need all the support they can get. If some good comes of the old boys network, then so be it. Business is business, and long friendships deserve reinforcing. In the end though, the truth is going to come out, and you will need to stand on your own merits. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
As BlackShadow points out, word of mouth spreads fast and its your street cred that
gets you jobs. Today with the internet, reviews are posted and considered in hours. All the more reason to value your words.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Julie Inner circle 3936 Posts |
I get stuck in the ol' Girls' Club--PHOOEY!
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