Hi folks,

I really need you guys opinions about the following sleights/moves, if a person can master all the following sleights/moves, in your honest opinion, what is your rate/classifications for that magicians????

Do you rate him as "Intermediate" or "Advanced" magicians?????

Zarrow Shuffle
Seconds Deal
Bottom Deal
Jordan Count
Elmsley Count
Double Lift
Buckle/Double Buckle
Hindu Shuffle
Double Undercut
Vernon-Addition
Classic Pass
Turnover Pass
Riffle Pass
False Cut
Blink Change
Houdini Change
Erdnase Change
Shapeshifter Change
Krenzel Mechanical Reverse
Bluff Jog
Ascanio Spread
Palms
Hofzinser Spread Cull/Force
Rumba Count
Siva Count
Paintbrush Change
Classic Force
Jennings 'Larraverse'
Dribbling Force
Riffle Force
Jennings Optical Add-On

The lists will still go on but I just list a number of them.

Sometimes, when you surf a particular magic store and usually the seller is very kind to rate particular books as "Beginners", "Intermediate" and "Advanced".

If you are the seller, and the buyer tells you that he knows the above sleights/moves as listed, which categories will you recommend him/her to buy those books????

Does him/her categorised as "Advanced" magician????

Thanks and I am appreciate your honest reply/opinions regarding the above matter.

Best Wishes,
Andrew Loh

Intermediate....

Advanced is what you do with these sleights, or how they are combined, applied to various effects.

I let you have my honest opinion..really !

Also it is great to master all this an play with it, it is NOT what really counts.
Note pls. this is just my honest opinion!

As you might have read and probably seen earlier, all what is needed to ENTERTAIN your audience, is a *pass* (card control), a *force* and a *palm* , all done expertly.

Actually I basically agree to this..

Remember, we are talking about entertaining audiences -at least that is what I'm here talking about- and not about somne *show off* between magicians and magic friends!
It is fun to be able to do some of the stuff you mentioned, I did some of it too way back, *seconds, centers, bottoms* and that kind, but to entertain an audience it is not needed.

Remember, this is just MHO, but it comes from many years of playing with that kind of stuff...and the audience never is or rather should be aware of all the clever sleights you use, it's the effect and the entertainment that counts and that could be achieved without the use of all this fancy stuff.

Nevertheless, I admit it is fun to play with, but a lot of real pro's have entertained their audience for ages and got recogniced as great artist/magicians/entertainers, whatever you would call it..

There are a lot of examples in the States..take f.ex.: Johnny Paul.
In Europe one performer stands out: Paul Potassy!

So the question is what you aim for..

I don't think magician who mastered all of these sleights are all advanced magicians, but I think advancd magicians have mastered these sleights because most of them are basic ones.

Hideo Kato

P.S.
To classify levels of magicians, we need to evaluate,
technical level, theatrical level, originality level, personality level and so on.
Sleights are only part of Magic. You can perform magic without sleights, but you can't perform magic without theatrical technique.

I hold a 5th dan black belt in Kempo and have always told students that the basic punch they learn in their first class is the same punch that a master uses. The difference between the beginners punch and the masters punch is simply years of practice. Quality, not quantity should be your focus. I use the same principle in magic as I do in Kempo, the 3 B's and the 3 R's; Basics,Basics,Basics - Repetition,Repetition,Repetition. Doug

I don't think that a person is a magician if they master these moves or any other move... A move without an effect or a need is just a move...

A magician is a person that performs magic effects...

Not a move collector.....

I feel the effect is important... Not so much the move. The moves are just a way to get there and do the effect!!!

The moves count nothing. It´s good to know them, but without presentation....

Magixx

As Kato san mentioned already, theatrical technique is always more important than the sleights itself. As bishthemagish said, a move is useless without being utilized in a trick. The extensive list you listed at the beginning is of intermediate skill level (that means if you can do all 100 correctly with flaws, and with proper presentation).

Just my 3 cents worth
msc455magic

As a guy who has edited a few magic books and reviewed videos for five years, I have tried to use so-called "classifications" to allow the student of magic to know what material was appropriate to their level of technical development.

In my own classification, sleights like the Zarrow Shuffle, Second and Bottom Deals and the Classic Pass would be "Advanced Intermediate," although "Advanced" is also appropriate.

But your list contains a mix of very simple sleights along with more advanced ones. And it is important that these classifications are not badges to wear, to brag to others about and feed your ego. They are words to make learning easier, that's all.

Matt Field

Of course if you master all those sleghts your tecnical level is at least intermediate...Advance, not sure because there are plenty of work that you can do with the zarrow shuffle for example (like culling and stacking...) or riffle shuffle tecniques... that can be a lot harder that those you mentioned.

However, the main problem is what you understand by "mastering a move". A lot of people can do bottoms and seconds but most of them execute them quite terribly. SO, to sum it up, I think that to consider somebody advanced in card techniques it´s better to look at the fluency and deceptiveness of his work, more than the number of techniques he knows.

Apparently I'm alone. I think if you've mastered the list above, then you are clearly advanced. That list includes several passes, a classic force, "palms" (presumably several and maybe most), second and bottom deals, etc. Now we can wax philosophic about the need to be entertaining, smooth, etc., and of course those are true needs to be a magical entertainer. But I would consider someone an advanced card mechanic if they can do all the things set out in that list.

Gianni

Yes..stand in front of a mirror and enjoy...no audience is interested in your passes

Of course, the comments about theatricality and utilization in tricks are not only on the money, but at a higher level in the hierarchy of essential skills. However, if you are talking purely about technique, then to have truly "mastered" the ones you cite (including the classic pass and false deals) would certainly make you "advanced". But can you honestly say that you have achieved mastery of the pass as seen on Duffie's web site or Krenzel' s video? We are talking about literally thousands of hours of practice on that one move.

I have to take this up one more time.. Johnny Paul.
One simple example.

Watch his presentation, the magic and entertainment he creates by using a simple palm when doing the *Cards Across* with 2 ladies..

It's the way he does that *palm*, the way he hides the cards -seen from a technical point- and the entertainment he creates by using one simple sleight.

That's MAGIC of the highest order !

He doesn't need a center deal to do this, nor any other fancy sleight..

Learn from a master, watch him work and drop the seconds, centers, bottoms unless you can create a better effect then Johnny Paul can by using a very simple sleight...

It depends on how well you can do them. If you can do them realy well I think your very good, technically advanced. If that is the case I do not think there is much you could not do with a deck of cards. If you are good entertainer is a different matter.

Card mechanic, maybe. But magician? Not necessarily.

Wasn't it David Devant who when asked how many tricks he knew and discovering that the person asking knew 300, replied "hmmmm, I only know about eight."

It isn't how many "moves" or "tricks" you know that makes you a magician.

Well, let me put it another way..

You want to get a picture hanging on your wall and you need a nail to hang it up there.
To bang that nail into the wall you need a hammer.
That hammer is a tool.
A centerdeal is a tool too.

But what you want is enjoying the picture on your wall and to be able to enjoy it, you need a tool and a *gimmick*, the gimmick in this case is the nail, the hammer is the tool and the picture is the allover pleasure you get out of all this.
You can try to compare this with magic.

You use a sleight to produce pleasure and entertainment, but that sleight solely is a tool to the end result.

Now you can choose how many solutions will give you the same result.

I know the example re the painting 'su**s', but it's just one that popped to mind and I think it is good enough to get the general idea.

One might have pleasure out of learning and playing with a tool, but it's the endresult that gives *others* pleasure, the tool normally soley gives pleasure to yourself and your fellow handyman..
Technicians/handymen love their tools and want to have the best, that' fair enough, but the customer isn't interested in that fancy tool of yours, he wants to have pleasure out of the finished, the endresult..

Also note, magic is to give others pleasure, be they paying audiences or not, they hardly will fall in love with your centerdael as they are supposed not to notice it, what they notice is the result it produces and probably, just probably that reslut can be achieved by other means, but they don't give YOU that much pleasure in playing then practising a centerdeal..so you're just selfish

Just my own humble thoughts..

PS. I'm guilty too, I also want some fun and I avoid selfworking stuff, that's not that funny to do, but maybe the audience does love the result...

I agree. If you are getting too hung up on how many sleights you know, you are probably more concerned with impressing yourself or other magicians. Laymen couldn't care less. There are many different ways which lead to the same end result. The many will impress magicians, but only one is necessary to entertain a layman.

Back to this original question. If you know the names of these sleights and are willing to try them in a trick, you would be considered advanced enough to handle books for advanced magicians.

The idea of these classifications is simply that in books considered "advanced" you will be expected to know most of these moves and they will not be explained. Dealers don't want to sell you a book that you will not be able to understand because of numerous references to moves that are not explained and you are not familiar with.

If you have the basic references--Erdnase, "Expert Card Technique," "Card College," "Counts, Cuts, Moves and Subtelties," etc., then you will be able to find whatever moves you need in order to follow the descriptions in the book you have chosen.

Some people enjoy reading magic that they can't and don't intend to attempt, just for the education and fun of it. But it isn't an education if you haven't a clue as to what the writer is talking about. If you know the meaning of the names of the moves you have cited, I would consider you advanced enough for almost any magic book.

Erdnase's "Expert at the Card Table" is a very advanced book, that only a few have mastered, but you don't need to be advanced to read and understand it since it explains every move and doesn't assume prior knowledge of card table artifice.

Many books do assume prior knowledge, and expect you to know all the basics already. These are the ones that a dealer would consider "advanced."

There is a difference between being an "advanced" student or reader of magic and an "advanced" performer.

If you're rating a magician on difficulty of sleights and moves, that would be intermediate. Hardest sleights of course are the ones that requires practise till you get the knack flawlessly especially but not limited to XCMs.

If you're rating a magician on presentation/performance, it depends on your shows of course. Stuffs like: How easily do you perform a show? Good at starting/ending a show?

Usually the overall magician is rated on the latter.

I believe there's only differentiation between beginner and non-beginners for classification and introduction of teaching videos. I don't think I need to explain.

Hmm.... if the videos are categorized that way(Beg,Int,Adv), then I'd say intermediate is just a mix bag of advanced & beginner style teachings. Advanced most likely requires you to know a lot of stuff they don't teach. Otherwise, look at previous paragraph.