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Chris Keppel Special user Kansas City MO 544 Posts |
It boils down to if they can do the moves correctly and flawless or not. Sure you might be able to do a bottom deal but if its shady or sucks then you really cant do it. Along with those other moves. Sure, lots of people may be able to do them, its how good they can do them that matters.
www.chriskeppel.com
Kepp's Custom Carbon Fiber |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-01-14 10:57, bishthemagish wrote: Then you knew what level they were on and could suggest various levels of books. That is the question that was being asked. How does a customer know what level of books he should ask for? What are the levels? |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Whit asked... How does a customer know what level of books he should ask for?......................................................................................
That depends on the customer. Some were magicians and some were people pretending to be a magician. It could be called masters and students... In Karate they have different belt colors for the students. Each color a level of success with the sport or art of Karate... In other schools the belt is dyed black in sections. Same reason the level of the student. In magic there is no such thing. There are students and magicians or one could say master magicians. On stage my promo says that I am a master of my art. This is important because I make a living at magic. And hypnosis. I word the copy and I do not say I am a master but I get letters from shows I do for the public. And many say they enjoy my show and over the years the public can see that I did not just fall off a milk truck and called myself a magician. But some in the lay public view my promo and think that I am a master magician and I do play the part in the lay public's eye because it demands a higher fee... But once the show ends after the follow up I become a student of magic again... One of the things that I feel is wrong with the sub culture of magic is the fact that magicians seem to want to one-up-mans-ship the other magicians. Many have an I'm better than you attitude. One of the things that many of them do is use their own level system of what they feel is good to insult other magicians. I have heard insults like that in the old magic shop for years... One guy was insulting another guy about the fact that he had more shows than he did. He said something like - "Why does he get so many shows he isn't that good - the guy doesn't even know basic card magic or can second deal"... "I said to him - no he has an entertaining magic show and is better than booking that you are"... To me magic only has students and magicians... And how good they are is a personal judgment call by most often a single person. We all learn different things different ways and what makes us different is our own point of view. So in my view point to rate ones-self with another by how many moves they know. Or how many moves another person knows - doesn't amount to much. Because my race is with myself and only to get myself better each day. And speaking about the years and years I spent selling in a magic shop. All I was doing was earning a profit to keep my Dad in business. And it is only good business to sell them something that they will be successful doing... One more thing... Level of experience in magic is often used by older magicians to put younger magicians in their place when they get to big headed... After being leveled for more than three decades by some of the Chicago's finest professional magicians - now I am a hard guy to level...
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Tommy magic by age level doesn't always work. And when done by a magic shop all it is - is a structured way to sell. And an attempt to match up product with customers...
Or a formal structure for formal teaching of lessons in magic... What I don't agree with it is that it can be used as a grading system for magicians. Beginner - Advanced beginner and so on. Why grade something that is suppose to be fun... Taking things to seriously can knock the fun right out of something that many do for the love of it...
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Ben G Regular user 141 Posts |
I think the key here is to master what you use and know about the rest. What's the point of doing everything (in a good or bad manner) if you are not using it ?
Ben G
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Eight Spades Elite user Ohio (northwest) 482 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-01-14 19:39, Chris Keppel wrote: Speaking on a technical aspect alone, sure. But let's not forget that the moves, matter how incredible you are at executing them, are less than 10% of the effect. In many's opinion, you could be the best at these moves, and still be a horrible magician. -Christian Quote:
On 2005-01-14 22:56, tommy wrote: Hardly. It's an honest attempt to give potential, inexperienced buyers to see if they'll be able to accomplish a certain move, but you can't rate someone from that. What if you're incredible at one sleight, but still can't get a pass down? Does that knock you down in skill level?
"Tricks are only the crude residue from which the lifeblood of magic has been drained." -S.H. Sharpe
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
What is this 10% 30% 70% come from? I see it all the time when people are trying to prove a point. where is the mathmatical equation. If we can not find the math we should not use the numbers, to "prove" anything. magic is abstract, so why are we trying to make it a absolute. I have watched a video of Rene'Levand I understood nothing he was saying, and thought he was wonderful, I was entertained. I saw a show on TV with Michael Finney. knew the tricks and enjoyed the show. "Why grade something that is supposed to be fun" completely true Glenn. I see so many OPINIONS pushed as facts and when they are disagreed with, they want to insult and belittle.
And I understood everything Glenn said, and when I have asked for his help he has done it gladly.... Courtesy can be graded. How would I grade a magicians Magic? Would I want to see it again? How would I Grade a magicians Level? Be him. I only want the burden of judging my own.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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Mike Squires New user Dallas 56 Posts |
This thread is amazing. Borderline phenomenal.
My New User status suggests that I've generally known when to keep my mouth shut.
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Eight Spades Elite user Ohio (northwest) 482 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-01-20 13:41, foreverriel wrote: Numbers in this situation are used so put things in perspective. If you want to nitpick, then no, we should never use numbers in anything related to the arts. That being said, and this being philosophy, we can't really prove anything. It's all up for debate, and the only way we believe anything is when many who have studied the subject conclude similar opinions. Magic books have written similar statements for decades in framing your rehearsals. As far as the language barrier, I said nothing of speech. I'm not sure what made you think I said patter=performance. Of course magic can be great without words. However, you seem to have sleights and silent magic confused.
"Tricks are only the crude residue from which the lifeblood of magic has been drained." -S.H. Sharpe
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Did I say patter? I believe if you read ALL that I said, you would not be quite so hasty to assume what I meant had everything to do with speach(or you may not), Here is where I do not need to judge. There are other people who posted on this thread, and I was not refferring entirely to this thread only. Why do you believe I was referring to you only?
Perspective is not proof, without proof you cannot have fact, without fact how can you judge in any absolute way. We can all judge to our personal taste, this we know, so therefore have a basis of fact. However we cannot judge to others taste. Let me also say noones personal taste will decide mine. I would hope others could do the same. learn what you want to learn, perform as you wish to perform, become a magician you want to be, and maybe we will see an entirely new type of wizard to bring us all a little farther into magic. Also I do not presume my words will change any minds, if you agree you still will if you disagree you still will so I'm spent on this thread. Altashheth (I wanted to use that word for so long, so I did)
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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JordanB Special user dallas, tx 626 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-01-20 14:48, Mike Squires wrote: What's really amazing is that cascade you do in your avatar. What level would you rate that as, beginner, intermediate, or stupendously advanced? |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
"Sometimes, when you surf a particular magic store and usually the seller is very kind to rate particular books as "Beginners", "Intermediate" and "Advanced"."
The link sort of answers that part of the original question. It does not follow that I rate magicians that way. I rate them this way: If they are better than me they are great but if they worse than me they are very bad.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Mike Squires New user Dallas 56 Posts |
If you look closely, you'll notice I'm cascading a six deck shoe. That's why I can drop so many cards in a row. It repeats once every three minutes. Watch for the yellow cut card.
My New User status suggests that I've generally known when to keep my mouth shut.
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Marco S. Inner circle 1017 Posts |
Of course Andrew knows that not only the sleights make a good magician, but this is not what he asked originally. Why not answer his question instead of always giving the same advice about originality, presentation, etc. It gets boring, guys.
Just as the opinions that were given. Andrew said the list is not exhaustive, but from the sleights he mentioned one can infer that the level of dexterity is "advanced" of course. What else??? I wonder how many guys of you who said "intermediate" or an even lower rating can do all these moves. Just looking at the list and seeing the Zarrow shuffle, the pass, and some other moves should clarify this. What do you guys consider "advanced"? Somebody who can do all this certainly has a superb skill of dexterity. Enough said. P.S. Would really like to see what you guys can do. |
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Hideo Kato Inner circle Tokyo 5649 Posts |
The level of technique is topnotch if you can do the listed sleights very well. But the level of your technique neccessarily doesn't match with your level as a magician.
Hideo Kato |
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3078 Posts |
Very well put, Hideo. I personally do not care who considers me whatever level, advanced or intermediate or anything else. I perform magic for entertainment and I do the "moves" that I do well, I would say, because I apparently do not get caught.That includes passes, double lifts, retention passes...but who cares what "level" I am? The lay people don't see it that way, unless the performance is really bad, to which they might say something like, "what a hack!" But I don't think they would say, "that guy must be a beginner. No, more of an intermediate."
Then again, if you're just talking about hanging out with magicians, then I guess the level thing matters, but mostly only to beginners. |
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Mike Squires New user Dallas 56 Posts |
Andrew's question, as MarcoS tried to remind us, is not about ranking oneself against the large set of egocentric, insecure magicianry, constantly trying to defend their egos, rather about ranking oneself against a book, or video; specifically, it's contents. Andrew's questions have a clear answer: Yes, competence in the listed set of slieghts would make you an advanced magician from the standpoint of learning from videos or books.
A large number of people have tried to set everyone straight by making it clear that one cannot rank a magician, the task being pointless. While this may be true, it is more pointless to infer a question that was not posed in order to proffer unsolicited opinions, largely obscuring the original poster's question.
My New User status suggests that I've generally known when to keep my mouth shut.
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Mr Squires you are right, of course, and I apologize, to you also Andrew. Like I've said before "everytime I open my mouth I put my foot in it". I'm going to try to use more discretion in the future.
I wasn't going to butt in here anymore, I just wanted to say sorry.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3078 Posts |
Well, in addition to the original question, Andrew also said he appreciates honest replies and opinions, and offering an opinion is just what I have done.
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