I´m sure than F/K hold out is good, but I have seen how work Romero´s Hold Out and it´s
really very good.

I am not saying that Romero's is "bad". The Vernet one is not "bad". They both can do miracles, they both can make objects appear and dissappear.

BUT

There is problems inherent in the design and the F/K system is the ONLY one that fixes them all.

If you want to get the least expensive version with problems get the Vernet one. If you want to get the least expensive one that solves all the problems get the F/K one.

Ok.But I saw Romero´s Hold Out in France Congres and it´s incredible. And the item is really good made and solved the problems with the Hold out. Very practic.

I am curious, are you Mr. Romero?

I only ask because you just joined today, the only posts you have ever made are in this thread to say Romero's holdout is really good, and "Magoantonio@terra.es" is his email which matches the name you use.

If you are him, it is strange that you are writing in the 3rd person which makes it sound like you are not Mr. Romero.

Also commonly known as a sleeve. You can buy the jacket. You don't have to lease it and the sleeves are thrown in for FREE.

John

Mr Wayne,

it is hard to maintain a productive discussion if you maintanin the posture of "I know everything about holdouts"
I am happy that you do, and that you can build anything you want, God bless your hands for many yearas to come. What I don't understand is why you have qualify this as a piece of junk. Where do you get this right?
Knowing the concept of pulleys does not give you experience on this particular model, even if had constructed many of hold outs based on this system.
Even if you are a world champion Chef, that does not give you the right to say that my wifes homecooking sucks.

And your are repeating myself, because I was the first one to say."
The Perfect Holdout might not be that perfect", but I also said "it is a very well made product, by a proffesional magician, and that deserves some basic respect."

I don't understand either if the Kohler version is so magnificent why you guys even bother to make coments about other modells.

And the last couple of things I want to ask Dan.

Please tell me that you are not justifying a $1.500 dollars differece on price on the fact that in the Romero's model you have to do a couple of knots in the thread to adjust it, and that when you are done using it you can go ahead and stick the magnet to the safety pin in order to lock it right?

Please tell us that there are more differences than these 2 minor details. I would love to see the K system in action.

Also since the pulley system was not used in the K system. Does that mean that you don't get the advantage of the short-motion, long travel distance that you get in the Romero's?

And please to everyone, let's change the attack attitude, and let's talk about magic, we can all learn something new, even those that know everything

Just because one model is magnificent doesn't mean we can't discuss other holdouts and the relative advantages/disadvantages.


I wasn't discussing price I was only discussing design advantages. Back on page 1 of this thread I stated that “I wish selfishly that the price was more affordable.”

Decisions on price comparisons are relative; it depends on a person's level of income I would gather as well as the way the person is planning on using the holdout.

As to your question on the lock: it is a question of value. The lock stops the holdout from coming down the sleeve inadvertently when it is not needed. As an example, you are performing something choreographed to music, lets say a five minute routine. Right smack dab in the middle of the routine is when you need the holdout to temporarily steal something and then give it back a half a minute later. The lock gives the performer the confidence to know that the holdout is not going to be coming down the sleeve at the beginning of the routine or during the later part when the holdout is not needed. If you don’t have the locking mechanism you are going to have to go reach into your jacket (routine a reason to do so), drop the end down the sleeve, use it, then you run the risk of it coming back down your sleeve when you don’t need it for the last 2 minutes of your routine. So now you have to reach back into your jacket (routine a reason for doing so) pull the end out of the sleeve, fumble for a safety pin or more likely drop it in a pocket. What if the routine you are performing has no logical reason to be reaching in your jacket to play with your armpit? Suddenly the lock becomes a very valuable item.

Regarding the adjuster: If you only use one end on your holdout and you don’t need to switch ends and you ONLY use it for one purpose during your act I guess you would be fine. If you want to be able to use the holdout for different effects during your act, you need a quick way to change ends (something the F/K attachment concept is designed for). Say you need the line 1 inch shorter. If you have the luxury of stopping your act, going behind curtain to tie knots in your string, your right, the adjuster has no value. If you need to switch and end and adjust in a matter of seconds with no delay in your act, the adjuster becomes valuable.


Yes there is more than these 2 major details, I am not in a position to divulge anything more than I already wrote in previous threads. I use Bob’s website as a guide for what I talk about, anything he hasn’t divulged I’m not going to either. The attachment system they use is probably one of the most valuable and ingenious keys to the system. As I said in a previous post, without their attachments and the system employed to interface with the holdout, the F/K system diminishes greatly in value.

Regarding seeing the F/K system in action, yes you would love it trust me.


Yes Read Thomas’s posts specifically Tommy Wonder’s insights regarding the use of a pulley in a holdout instead of a pull.


I can only answer this for myself. If you read up through my posts I am strictly talking design differences and advantages, I haven’t attacked a thing, all I am doing is talking about the solutions the F/K system solves from when I got to see it. I have nothing to gain here, I don’t make, sell, own, etc. any of the holdouts. I just enjoy talking about this stuff because it is intriguing.

Well, it's hard for me to know if you miss the point on purpose or really don't understand what I'm saying. I'll try one more time.

There is NOTHING that could prevent us from using the EXACT method used by your friend's misnamed "Perfect Holdout". We don't use it in the Fitch/Kohler holdout because we feel the principle is incorrect for the holdout application. Whether or not your friend's device is "well made" does not keep the concept itself from being "junk". Nevertheless, one gets what one pays for, and as I already explained, I don't see a lot of room for high-quality manufacturing within the price structure of this device.

In any event, it is my opinion that anyone who thinks having differential pulleys solves all the problems of the traditional gravity holdout doesn't know very much about gravity holdouts. Don't have a cow, Carlos, it's just my opinion. The only benefit of differential pulleys is less strap end movement to attain greater holdout movement; travel and speed are increased, but the tradeoff is that greater force is required and the one-to-one control is lost.

Think about it for a minute; if less movement is required to actuate the holdout when you want to, then less accidental movement is required to activate it when you DON'T want to. With a one-to-one system that is properly adjusted, I know EXACTLY how much movement is going on at every moment. And, with a properly adjusted Fitch/Kohler Holdout your supposed "large" arm movements are completely unnecessary. In fact, I consider that argument to be exxagerated for the purpose of selling Romero's reels. I've watched the experts like Bob Fitch using the system and believe me, there is NONE of the awkwardness that you and your friend protest about.

The other "breakthrough" solutions, such as hooking up to the wristwatch and sticking the magnet end to a safety pin (similar to dropping it into a pocket) are nothing new at all. Similar ideas have been promoted by Miller and Vernet long before now.

You write:


Please tell ME something Carlos; tell me that you haven't been to the Fitch/Kohler Holdout page so that you really have no idea of the comprehensive nature of the complete system. The URL is http://www.bobkohlermagic.com . Please go and read all that is described about the system and then tell me that you don't think what you wrote above, that the only difference for $1500 is a few knots and a safety pin.

Of course, after reading what is there, if you STILL contend that is the only difference, then I'll know that you are not interested in an honest discussion at all, and are instead merely helping your friend promote his reels.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

Carlos;
One concern of mine on a differential pulley system of holdout control is the very real chance that the cords get tangled. If tension was not kept on both ends of the system, the nylon cord would tend to coil and kink up (inside of the housing) if the entrance and exit holes in the housing walls did not have friction controls built into them. I would hate to be let down by this holdout design during a performance due to this tangling. For the $190 retail price, I doubt that friction controls are there as that price does not allow the builder much time to invest in each unit. Remember that time is money in manufacturing.

I'm not quite certain that the name "Perfect Holdout" is appropriate. "Improved Holdout", "Miller Outdone" or something along these lines might be more suitable as a name.

I do not think that anyone here has said that this holdout would not work with lots of practice. But, it simply could not be as versatile, dependable, nor as elegant a solution as the Fitch/Kohler Holdout. A lot of thinking/experimenting by a group of dedicated and very knowlegable experienced individuals went into the holdout system offered on Bob Kohler's web site. Read everything carefully.

If I wanted or felt that I needed one, I would find the money to obtain one. A good tool which reliably does its job - and this holdout system is a tool - is worth a great deal of money. Please remember this is a holdout SYSTEM not merely a holdout.

Having said all of that, perhaps I'll go out to my shop and design/make my own "Perfect Holdout" - without the differential pulleys.


Jim

Hello, I am Antonio Romero. One person speak about me of this forum. The english it not my lenguage and it´s difficult to me write it correct, sorry.
At first, Congratulations to Bob Koller for his hold out.
The idea of the perfect hold out (sorry for the name, it´s only a comercial name) it´s mine. It´s not a problem of force or sensibility. For me, the real problem with the hold out is can be use it without doing any move. Only a little move. My solution try to do it. With my hold out you haven´t a problem of control or tension. The concep is diferent it´s not a force concept. I use (you can see all about the Perfect Hold Out in http://www.perfectholdout.com )a system than with a little move in one hand you have a long move in the tool. No problems of force or tension. And what happend with this is that you don´t need to do strange moves with your hold out. It´s very very smooth. One magician said that this is a bad solution. Sorry, but it is part of the great solution. You haven´t any problem with force. My solution it´s not only a single-action—double-action system, it´s a system to multiply the move and in my systems this play favor for you. Try it and a new hold out word open for you. The attachment that I use it´s a magnet. You can put what you want but I put it becouse it´s very practical and very easy to use with all items. (only you need to put a little metal in the item you use). With my system is very easy work with the hold out in the moment you need it.
I haven´t secrets, becouse I think if you by something of 190$ you must know what are you buying. I can put this price becouse I do a lot of Hold Out. Only in Spain that is a little market, I sold more of 150 unit in a year. (I sold the hold out since the year 2000).
My Hold Out it´s a tool for the magicians and I think that is good for all that you can uses different systems. Koller, Miller or mine. You can compare and later selct.

Yes, you are. Dan Watkins had the good eye to catch you, via your email address.

I'M curious about your earlier post when you wrote:



And then later, when you wrote:



Weren't you being a little dishonest, pretending to be a third party who had seen your reel, and was reporting how good it was? That is what we english-speakers call DISINGENUOUS. That means "not straightforward; crafty".

It's rather hard to put much faith in anything else you have to say, after seeing you try to be sneaky like that.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

I am sorry, but I´m not the person who written that. I don´t need this kind of publicity. It´s has written by the magician who heed my web when i am traveling.
Sorry if you have a confusion with it. He written it and knor speak me about it

Welcome to the Magic Café Forums Antonio. I did enjoy reading your website and your concepts and discussing them here.

Your English writing is better than some Americans who post here.

Hello and thanks.You have a lot of ideas to do with the hold out in my web. (with all kind of hold out)and a History of theirs. Enjoy with it that is the more important

It would help my ulcer if this thread became less contentious and accusatory.

Some of the posts from knowledgeable people whom I respect are causing an erosion of that respect.

There is little doubt that the FKW holdout is a gem...and that's based on my seeing it demoed in Vegas. (JohnMartin: I hate to state the obvious, but there are things you can do with a holdout, and even more with a FKW holdout, that can't be done simply sleeving. Sheesh...)

But isn't there room in the magic community for more than one device and more than one price level? Surely someone capable of investing $1500 to $2000 in a utility device will know the difference between the devices. That defensiveness in the air, which is now so thick as to require King's chainsaw to cut through it, is unnecessary.

Please slow my disillusionment. Stick to the facts and avoid the attacks.

Peace out...

Steve "No, no for me today, thank you" Hook

>It would help my ulcer if this thread
>became less contentious and accusatory.

Yes, thank you.

On the lighter side of things, can you imagine what having TWO holdouts could potentially do (regardless of the model or method)? Imagine having coins disappearing and reappearing in each hand. Or maybe doing something twice is a bit tedious and may take the mystery out of it? Or you make the coins switch hands, put them away supposedly at the end of that trick, do some stuff with cards, then suddenly, the four coins are back in the hand. "I thought I put those away?"



Brian

We have talked about that idea, but it will take a far more skilled and graceful performer than ME to pull that off. Fortunately, guys like that are everywhere, so I expect to see exactly what you describe someday. Just not from me.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

We both know Fitch is a dancer who teaches about coreography and body motion as well as a master with the holdout. Are you aware if he has ever tried using two holdouts at once?

Hi,
I'm from japan,I'm a reader of this forum for year but my English is not too good so I havn't post here.
This is my first post because these few days so many people talking about the Fitch Holdout. Two months ago I already decided to buy one Fitch Holdout. Last week my assistant have email Bob, he replied still waiting for the DVD and cann't tell the frist shipment day. But I will wait for this super device.

I saw the post of Mr.Carlos about the Perfect Holdout .May be it is not so perfect but its already very good at this price range. I think I will also buy one perfect holdout before the Fitch holdout .

I've a routine of diminishing cards,at the end I need the tiny cards complete vanish from my hands. I need to perform in front of my chest,never drop down my hands. So I need a holdout which can use horizontally,
just like a rod extend from the Holdout system to take my cards. Mr.Dan Watkins I know you have seen the Fitch Holdout can you tell me whether the Fitch Holdout have this
kind of rod to take back items into the sleeve. Some friends recommend me the Tom Young's Holdout for this Job. Can you give me some comment about Tom Young's Holdout.

Mr.Thomas Wayne I know you are very familiar with all kinds of holdout,will you please give me some comment of Tom Young's holdout, is it suitable for my routine.

Thanks all of you in advance

Sharpace,

Gravity is one of the neccessary parts of the Miller design which is still neccessary for the Fitch/Kohler, Romero, Vernet, etc. holdouts. You will need to drop your hand at some point to aquire the holdout end. There is no rod that exends while in a horizontal position.

The Tom Young holdout is a modified Kepplinger style. The original Kepplinger unit needed you to be sitting to use it and it originally only did one thing: steal and produce cards. I am not under the impression it is designed for a whole deck of cards (tiny or regular size). Kepplinger style holdouts are not typically for standup closeup work and need rather large bulky sleeves to work.

I am familiar with the basic Miller design and the Fitch/Kohler design, I am not that knowledgable on other types so I would have to defer to others like Thomas or Jim Riser (who has built Kepplinger style units).