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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magical Accessories » » The Fitch Kohler Professional Holdout System is soon to be released! » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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JohnMartin
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JohnMartin: I hate to state the obvious, but there are things you can do with a holdout, and even more with a FKW holdout, that can't be done simply sleeving. Sheesh...)


Quote:
Please slow my disillusionment. Stick to the facts and avoid the attacks.


I hate to state the obvious Steve, but that was a somewhat small injection of humour into an otherwise pointless,overblown and childish discussion about who has the better mousetrap. And more recently, it seems, who has the best , better, newest and most improved name for their system.... a big SHEESH.
However since you brought up the subject, maybe I could refer you to Carl Cloutier's body of work and his numerous international magic awards as proof of the power of sleeving. Maybe you should have wrote...."but there are things you can do with sleeving, that can't be done simply using the FKW holdout (or any other)".
Unless that's how Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty Disappear!!!
Respectfully,

John
Carlos Hampton
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sharpace,

Dan is in the correct when he says that you will need gravity with the Perfect holdout.

If you can alter the vanishing of the tiny card somehow, maybe a hold out can be aplied. Another option is to use a topit, but you will need some source of cover.
Eric DeCamps has a great deck vanish in the tape that Tannes released many years ago, Stars of Magic.
This one uses a topit and a hankerchief to cover the cards momentarely.

If you need further information about the Perfect Holdout, I'll be glad to help if I can.
Dan Watkins
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Quote:
On 2002-12-08 17:07, JohnMartin wrote:
[...]an otherwise pointless,overblown and childish discussion about who has the better mousetrap. [...]


Emotions aside I thought it was an interesting discussion of design features and solutions. There are better mousetraps (if you wish to trivialize) and discussions of different models only helps to get a better picture of the pros and cons of the various designs. I for one came out if it with more knowledge than I went in.
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RiserMagic
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Sharpace;
If you need to be standing and with your hands held in front of your chest, a streamlined and specialized Kepplinger style of holdout would be the type to use. Be aware that once it is strapped on to you, you do not have complete freedom of movement. Whether or not this is a good solution to your problem depends upon what you are doing throughout your act. There are several methods for activating a Kepplinger holdout. In your particular instance, a chest operated model might be best and allow the most arm movement. If sleeve room permitted, a specialized lever operated holdout might do the job for you. There would be less expensive ways to vanish the tiny cards. There are several holdouts shown on my web site.
Jim

Steve;
Try a TUMS. IMHO - This has been a very informative discussion. It is wonderful that Antonio Romero joined in the holdout comparison.

People who make and design things tend to feel that their creations are like their children and become very protective of these creations. This is normal, expected human behavior for those who devote their lives to creating and is to be expected. This is not ulcer creating stuff. I would be very concerned if the people involved did not stick up for their creations. It's a trait of creative people - learn to live with it or associate with the uncreative masses. I have enjoyed this thread and have felt no tension; but did get a couple good chuckles reading the various posts. In no way has my respect for anyone diminished. I never even heard of Antonio Romero; but now I consider him to be a person worth knowing. I now have respect for a man in Spain that I never knew existed.

I have seen and made many types of holdouts over the years and had not seen one quite like Antonio's. He is to be congratulated on his design and method. No it is not a real elaborate system and not quite the way I would do it; but it can work. And perhaps it can work well enough for many magicians. At least he has considered the problem and developed a solution. For that he is to be commended.

Steve, I consider such discussions to be relaxing and stimulating rather than ulcer iritating. No TUMS for me.
Jim
Steve Hook
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Jim and Dan:

I agree that the information sharing was interesting and enlightening.

The negativity and disparagement wasn't.

I was hoping for more on "single-action—double-action systems" and "locking mechanisms" and less on "your reel is junk" (it doesn't appear to be) and "[you're posting disingenuously]" (he apparently wasn't).

Best wishes and peaceful intentions,

Steve


JohnMartin:

Touche'. I missed your sarcasm as things were heating up.

Also, I haven't said anything negative about sleeving or topit work. Carl Cloutier is amazing. And Fitch and Kohler do differently amazing things with a holdout. Fair enough?

Steve H Smile Smile Smile
Like Bonnie Raitt said, "I miss Little Feat more than I miss being 8 years old." Thanks for the concerts + recordings, Lowell, Richie, and Paul!
Corey K
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Just to answer the question about the Tom Young Holdout, yes you could do that vanish of a miniature deck with it. It's best if you are sitting when using it, but it's possible to do it while standing.

For more information on the Young Holdout, check Hocus-Pocus.com
Corey King
Carlos Hampton
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Thank you Mr Hook.
Michele
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Mr.Antonio Romero

I've login your web site, I feel you have heart on your desgin ,although your perfect holdout may not be the best and perfect.But I think you have worked hard on it. In no way this product classified as "junk".

I'll order this reasonable price and workable "junk" to express my support on your creation.

I know the lease price for the Fitch Kohler Professional Holdout System is $1795.95 and
One Fitch Coin Attachment cost $399.00 So that's unfair to compare Fitch holdout with the perfect holdout only cost $199.00

I agree that the Fitch Holdout is very well made, a piece of art but it seem like a collector's item rather than a magician's accessory.

A perfect illusion is not depend on how High-tech the props are. It base on the timing , handling ,routine of the performer.

At the end, I really don't hope anyone to classific the other one's product as "Junk" unless he have own it,use it or fail with it.

Merry Christmas to Everyone here....
Dan Watkins
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Michele,

Congrats on your purchase decision, I am glad you found the alternative that works for you.

However I must ask you, after the kettle had simmered down did you feel you had to go stir it up with all the references (3 to be exact) to prior "junk" comments? It seems it was more your intention to insight more antagonism with certain people rather than to inform us of your purchase decision. Let it drop.
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Chris S
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We're almost there - nice and civil. When it comes down to it, the comparison of the two holdouts is pretty ridiculous. As Michele noted, it is sort of like comparing a Ferrarri with Hyundai - its an entirely different realm of product. I think its fair to say that Romero's holdout simply cannot provide the functions that the FK system can (if it could, then natural laws of pricing would be out the window Smile), but it does not mean its therefore not a perfectly practical and workable tool, and for those who will never, ever be prepared to shell out $1700 for ANY magic tool, it could indeed be the "perfect" holdout.
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
Dan Watkins
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One thing that occured to me that I wanted to bring out when all the hootin' and hollerin' subsided was a revealing comment that Mr. Romero made in his post:

Quote:
The attachment that I use it´s a magnet. You can put what you want but I put it becouse it´s very practical and very easy to use with all items. (only you need to put a little metal in the item you use).


If I am reading correctly this is a specific purpose holdout. It steals and delivers metal or magnetic items - or items that have metal secreted away in them. (Feel free to correct me if I am incorrect.)

There is not different attachments that need to be switched out.

This is a MAJOR issue when comparing A holdout to a holdout SYSTEM that does not JUST use a magnet end.

Lets assume for conversation sake that the actual F/K holdout itself sells for the exact same dollars as the Romero version. Bob's website says that the F/K system comes with 8 specialty attachments and 2 customizable ones.

Lets do some quick assumptions:

The F/K holdout unit itself sells for the price of the Romero one $200 round numbers. (This in itself is stretching it I can tell from seeing the F/K unit it would be more costly to make, but lets assume they are equal price anyway).

Now lets look at everything else:

Custom Leather hand made case: Lets use a round number of $100

Multiple DVD set - lets assume 3 DVDs for a total of $100 which is realistic if you were selling a 3 DVD set.

We are up to $400. Now you get ten specialty machined attachments that work with the system (half of what makes the attachmens work is designed in the attchments themselves which makes each attachment expensive). That is an average of $140 per specialty machined attachment.

Suddenly the pricing isn't too out of whack when you are comparing an entire system which consists of a holdout, case, DVDs, multiple attachments, everything custom machined.

I am sure my numbers are not actuals, but for conversation sake only, many people focus on the big $1800 without stopping and thinking there is a lot more items involved just the holdout unit itself.

Please don't anyone interpret I am trying to say anything bad against the Romero unit, the purpose of this post is to make a little sense of the price disparity by comparing the apples to the oranges.
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RiserMagic
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Now Dan;
You're stirring up the hornets' nest again. If you are not comparing apples to apples, why compare at all? Everyone understands that they are different and, as such, priced differently.

In a few days in the shop, I could convert "The Perfect Holdout" concept into a holdout system with a nice selection of quick change accessories and a lock. Then we could compare system to system.

I seriously doubt if most magicians care about a custom leather case since most of the time they would be wearing the holdout. All this holdout talk is making me think I need to develop my own gravity holdout system.

Thanks for the inspiration Smile
Jim
Carlos Hampton
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Mr Riser,

thanks for your thoughs, I find them very interesting most of the time, I totally agree that this is beating a dead horse, let's just let it go, as far as comparing things.
If you get the chance to experiment with Romero's model, I think you will like the simplicity of the method used in order to avoid the tangling that you mentioned.
It is so simple that is wondeful, but I don't have the right to discuss the workings. To me, regardless of what have been said in some of the previous posts, the advange of short-movement, long-travel is just wonderful.

Although there is no lock in the Romero's I can freely say that after you presset the lengh of the deliver/stealing end, you are not going to ended up with the magnet coming out of the sleeve, it travels only to your presset distance, and no further, therefore solving one of the pitfalls found on the Miller.

Also Romero explains in the video that comes with the hold out, ways that you can alter different things to make it work with the magnet along how to make a different attachment. Also additional ideas can be used from the Vernet booklet "The invisible hand", and "Holdout Miracles" by Ed Mishell easyly adaptable to this particular model.

I'll be looking forward to your discoverys and experimentations on your shop. All that comes out of it is outstanding.

With respect,

Carlos Hampton

BTW I have refered a lot of Spanish friends to your site for the McAbee Rings. They are outstanding!
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2002-12-09 00:59, RiserMagic wrote:
[...]In a few days in the shop, I could convert "The Perfect Holdout" concept into a holdout system with a nice selection of quick change accessories and a lock. Then we could compare system to system.

[...]


Jim,

Each Fitch/Kohler Holdout set requires more than one hundred individual components, none of which are available off-the-shelf; each component is machined, cast, cut or in some other way fabricated from very raw materials (brass, steel and acetal rod stock; laminated sheet phenolic [both papaer based and linen based]; Iron Boron Neodymium magnets; springs [compression and expansion]; adhesive felt; fiber optic cable - and those are just the material I CAN talk about).

I have spent the last few months building components almost full time; I still have at least a week to go before the first 25 units are complete.

Many of the Fitch/Kohler Holdout System components are my own proprietary inventions, and several of them CANNOT be ceated without the use of CNC machinery. However, even if you had all of my equipment and all of my inventions (so you didn't have to devote several months of R&D, as I did) it is highly doubtful you could build even one set in "a few days". Please don't take that as a criticism of YOU - I couldn't do it either. Realistically, with all the different parts to build and all the different setups that have to be changed between operations, it would be a push to build just ONE set in a five day work week. By way of example, Todd Lassen - a highly skilled machinist in his own right - designed and built just TWO components in a SEVEN day week.

So, in round numbers Jim, what's a week's worth of a guy like you (or me) cost these days?

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
RiserMagic
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Mr. Wayne;
If I decide to build a gravity holdout system to market, it would not be to copy nor duplicate the Fitch/Kohler system - which I do not even want to see. It would be a basic workable system designed to meet a need. It would not have to do everything your system does. It would not be designed to compete with your units. Most users will deploy a holdout for only one or two operations anyway and not require an extensive collection of accessories.

As for making a new holdout system, I have a drawer chock full of various holdout attachments that I have made over the years. These have already been tested and developed. All they would require is a different delivery system and a different quick change joint. It really would not take me long to put together a prototype system. If I had to develop everything from scratch, it would be a different story.

I am very familiar with making everything from raw materials - no off the shelf components. But a holdout system can be developed to avoid much of these labor/time intensive components.

Yes, our time is expensive. If I were to mass produce a new system, I would use my small CNC lathe to manufacture a few critical parts for quality control and speed. My turret lathe can produce assorted components just about as fast. Efficient manufacturing and avoiding overly complex accessories would help to keep the final price down. Even then, it would not be inexpensive.

To me the only question is whether or not I want to take on manufacturing another major product line.

Jim
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