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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
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On 2002-12-06 14:00, KingStardog wrote: Well I saw a movie once where some people down in Texas wearing masks used chainsaws to carve up some other people. Now, I don't want to imply that this is one of our additional IP protection steps, but... Regards, Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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jerdunn Inner circle 1734 Posts |
As Thomas Wayne said, I did get to see the Fitch-Kohler Holdout in Las Vegas, and I posted a description of what I saw (page 1 of this thread).
In short, I loved it. Great magic, solid engineering, and fabulous thinking from both Bobs. I've been fiddling with my old Miller holdout since then, as well as the "Invisible Hand" holdout put out by the Vernet guys. (This one comes with multiple ends and a booklet of effects that extends the older "Holdout Miracles" booklet.) With either of these units, you can do the classic holdout effects -- such as the ultra-clean Cut and Restored Rope effect described by Dan, above. But you quickly run into the very frustrations that led to the development of the FKHOldout . The various ends get out of adjustment. Things dangle out of your sleeve or get hung up on the way up it. To ring the holdout in and out of use you have to manually pull it up your sleeve and deposit the end in your inside jacket pocket. Etc. The FK Holdout is designed to overcome these limitations. The lock allows you to get it when you need it and stash it when you don't. There's a simple adjuster that enables you to accommodate the different ends without further hassles. The delivery mechanism is stabilized so you get what you need in a consistent way each time. There are some very useful attachments; one that hasn't been released yet but is planned is really brilliant. Maybe Thomas would care to discuss that one; it's not up to me. I haven't actually laid eyes on Bob Fitch's special coin attachment, but I've seen it in use and was, of course, boggled by the magic I saw. With it Bob F. does ultra-clean magic that's inexplicable. Simple example: Count four coins into your right hand. Toss them invisibly into the air, and catch them in your left hand, where they are heard to arrive. The right hand is empty. You can also clean up all sorts of effects (similar to the uses of sleeving and the Topit) by getting rid of extra coins or balls, gimmicks, and so on. I couldn't be more enthusiastic about the FK Holdout. I don't know the current release date. Thomas? Cheers, Jerry |
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KingStardog Inner circle 2134 Posts |
It's something that doesn't belong in the hands of everyone, just the select few artists, who realy need it.
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
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Blitzen Regular user 167 Posts |
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On 2002-12-04 03:40, Thomas Wayne wrote: Sure, I'll put a bet up, but I'd bet against myself. Holdouts are so obscure that I doubt that even if I do come up with a great new design that I would know that it was novel. Still, the fun is in the chase so I'm gonna keep poking with the idea. It is quite an engineering feat to do it well. I'm thinking maybe "muscle wire" or a couple radioshack hobby motors...hrrrm, maybe a couple electronic ITRs would work. Steve I don't see how copyright would work, patents would....but then there is that whole disclosure problem, of course not many are going to troll the patent publications to look for such a thing and if they do, it sounds like it's too intricate for anyone to bother machining theirselves. The big problem you might encounter is that most everything done with a holdout could potentially be done with really great slights--granted, they would need to be really great slights, but sponge/card/coin productions aren't all that odd...and if one steals the FK holdout and uses it well, you should never know that it's a holdout. Rather than licensing, what did your lawyers say about a simple non-disclosure agreement? I really like the idea of not placing it for sale, but instead reviewing offers to buy--keeps out the riff-raff. I wish you good luck. Steve |
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Zach Allen Elite user 466 Posts |
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On 2002-12-06 14:13, Dan Watkins wrote: Dan, Check out the Hot List at Hank's website. It appears to be a reel of some sorts for 190 bucks. I'm not putting much stock into it... Zach Allen
Check out all 6 of my e-books!
The Magic of Zach Allen Also, here is a free PDF of ideas: Starlit Circles |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
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On 2002-12-06 14:36, jerdunn wrote: I'm a... I'm a kinda busy here... TW (PS. Oh my God, he's fleeing the interview! The subject is fleeing the interview...!) [quote]On 2002-12-06 14:58, Blitzen wrote: Quote:
[...] Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
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Dan, Look at the picture - its a reel on a safty pin. This thing has nothing in common with the F/K holdout. A holdout can steal AND deliver items on demand to the magician's hand. A pull JUST steals. It does sound like whoever wrote the ad copy wrote it right after reading Kohler's website. Though instead of perfecting the original Miller concept, this Hanklee thing throws the concept in the trash and says just use a pull instead. |
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Schaden Inner circle Purgatory 1253 Posts |
This is what i think. The effects listed above can be done with out a hold out. I think guy is out of his mind. I can think of millions of ways to spend 1800 dollars better. I would 'maybe' buy this thing if i was Cooperfeild (said with a russian acsent). I mean think of the effects you could get for $1800. I think he over prices things. His ultmate 3 fly can be done with a ****. Get smart and learn how to alter your hold out device(i can't really say this because i don't have one). This is how i look at it. Lets take Kenton Knepper his stuff is worth 1000s but what does he sell it for 50 bucks. Maybe, the close up entertainer with EVERYTHING can buy this. Tonight i am not going to lose any sleep because i don't have it. Just remeber magic isn't about the tricks, it is about presentation and making your spectators slip in to a different state.
Thanks (sorry about the grammer (or spelling) i sold it to the Devil for some card tricks) |
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Michele Veteran user Taiwan 301 Posts |
[/quote]
Look at the picture - its a reel on a safty pin. This thing has nothing in common with the F/K holdout. A holdout can steal AND deliver items on demand to the magician's hand. A pull JUST steals. It does sound like whoever wrote the ad copy wrote it right after reading Kohler's website. Though instead of perfecting the original Miller concept, this Hanklee thing throws the concept in the trash and says just use a pull instead. [/quote] Hi Dan, I agree with you the Perfect Holdout by Hanklee look like a reel/pull. But My friend have email Hank Lee,they replied and said it can deliver items not just a pull. I really hope someone can give me some advice before I order it . P.S. is the F/K holdout needs battery to operate ? |
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
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On 2002-12-06 18:11, pyro_magic wrote: Your right. Quote:
On 2002-12-06 18:26, Michele wrote: Only when the electomagnetic charge weakens to the point that the kinetic pump isn't replenishing the retraction servo. Its only for a backup though. |
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KingStardog Inner circle 2134 Posts |
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On 2002-12-06 14:37, KingStardog wrote: Did I say that?
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
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On 2002-12-06 17:25, Dan Watkins wrote: Now that I took the time to go look at Hank Lee's site, my opinion is that it's $190 worth of junk However, Dan, I have to disagree somewhat with your assessment. Not only can this reel-on-a-safetypin (if that's what it is) steal items, but it can also deliver at least one thing: an instant case of buyer's remorse! Regards, Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Carlos Hampton Veteran user 363 Posts |
I have to say that some of you guys are pretty gutsy about giving an opinion of a product you haven't seen. At least you have the opportunity to say what you say because Antonio Romero, the manufacturer is offering a picture of his invention, which BTW has been in the market for more than a year now.
I just received mine directly from Spain, it comes with a video and the gimmick is not a cheap reel. As a matter of fact, it is not a retractor at all. I have previous experience with the Invisible Hand from Vernet which BTW I higly recommend the booklet that comes with it, to anyone interested in the subject. With the Perfect Holdout most of the problems presented by the invisible hand have been solved. The routine with color changing knives presented in the instructional video is a thing of beauty to watch. I am not going to enter in the discussion if this model is based on the Kohler one or not, simply because I have not seen the Kohler, but I have to say that Romero has won magic competitions with this hold out, his handling is superb, it is comfortable to wear, and it will not break. For those interested visit http://www.perfectholdout.com . Although I don't get any commision it will be nice if you mention to Antonio I sent you. Michelle if you need details contact me privately. |
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Carlos,
Thank you for the website link. That website is very informative. I should have reserved my opinion until I knew more. From reading the detail, Antonio's holdout is not just a pull as I quickly judged from the picture. He is taking a pully and adding it to the Miller holdout. This item can steal and deliver items. Is this the "Perfect Holdout" that solves all the problems of the Miller? No. It still has inherent problems, what Antonio's holdout does do is minimize the motions needed to use the holdout. |
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Carlos Hampton Veteran user 363 Posts |
Dan,
I can tell that you had fallen in love with the Kohler hold out. Probably if I get the chance to see it in action I will too. But here you keep giving opinions based on your feelings, and that is not objective. You are answering the question of if the "Perfect Holdout" has solve all the problems of the Miller model. Maybe you are right in your answer, I cannot discuss that right now, because I haven't study the Miller model, but I am very familiar with the Vernet model which is supossed to be an improvement over the Miller one. But the point here is that you don't know either, because reading a few paragraphs on the net does not give you the knowledge or hands on experience to afirm this. To give an inform opinion on the subject you will have to do a side by side comparison, either Romero vs Miller or vs Kohler. We know by now that we will not be able to do the comparison with Kohler's at least I don't have that amount of money to invest in this model and don't want to go through the legal system either. All I can say is that I had the Romero's model in my pssesion since the beggining of the week, I have not try it in real live situations, and probably won't in a long time, until I get the real feeling for it. But I have to say that in my many years in magic this is one of the best investments I have done, and I am eager to get to my magic room to start playing with it. For those of us who don't qualify for the super trooper Kohler's model, we can still try to perform miracles and camera magic like someone else called it with the "Perfect Holdout" |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
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On 2002-12-06 22:39, Carlos Hampton wrote: I beg to differ. It IS a reel; simply because the reel is powered by pulling a second cord rather than spring pressure does nothing to mitigate that fact. It's a small magnet in a bag attached to a cord that is wound up onto a reel through rotary force. The only difference is that the rotary force is supplied by one's other arm, attached to a second cord, rather than a wound spring. It's the principle of "differential pulleys" that makes it cool to play with, but that principle is not new. It's what makes a chain hoist in any auto shop work and it's been used in magic for a very long time. In fact, a simple "rising block" trick using the EXACT same principle has been around for decades, if not centuries. When I first became involved with the Fitch/Kohler holdout project we experimented with the idea of differential pulleys and rejected it for a number of reasons that are resolved with the final version Messrs. Fitch and Kohler are now offering to the industry. While my first impression of the Hank Lee pictures was a spring-operated reel - and in fact it IS a reel, just not spring-operated - I still see it as an imperfect solution to the many challenges raised by the Miller holdout model. I do believe the Fitch/Kohler Holdout has solved those problems, though I am not at liberty to explain the details of these solutions - except to those who have signed confidentiality agreements, of course. Incidentally, Carlos, I HAVE studied both the Miller model and the Vernet model. I have originals of both, as well as all the available literature regarding the use of them. I do NOT have the one you are in love with, but I am VERY familiar with the underlying principle and I DO have models I have built using that principle. I know how the one you are lauding works and have built similar ones to test; I have the Miller and Vernet models and I have designed much of (and am manufacturing ALL of) the Fitch/Kohler versions. I think that qualifies me just a little to discuss the issue, don't you agree? Regards, Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Ben721 Veteran user 314 Posts |
All I can say is a person who doesn't own the F/K holdout(But wants one very bad, but doesn't have enough money) when I looked at the "Perfect Holdout" it didn't look half as good as the F/K holdout sounds. I don't know, but if I had the chance of buying the Perfect Holdout I would save my money until I was able to buy the F/K holdout. It sounds extremly well crafted and the magic that you can perform with it sonds amazing. It sounds like something a wizard would do. Produce and vanish money within a second. If I had the money I would pay out fo a F/K Holdout.
Check out my new effect "As Good As It Gets" a gimmickles pencil or pen through bill effect. It closely mimmicks the slow motion phase of "Misled." About "As Good AS It Gets" for no gimmicks and everything being borrowed.
http://www.magic-notes.com/th |
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Carlos Hampton Veteran user 363 Posts |
Thomas Wayne said
"Incidentally, Carlos, I HAVE studied both the Miller model and the Vernet model. I have originals of both, as well as all the available literature regarding the use of them. I do NOT have the one you are in love with, but I am VERY familiar with the underlying principle and I DO have models I have built using that principle. I know how the one you are lauding works and have built similar ones to test; I have the Miller and Vernet models and I have designed much of (and am manufacturing ALL of) the Fitch/Kohler versions. I think that qualifies me just a little to discuss the issue, don't you agree? " At no time I refer to your qualifications as how prepared you were to discuss the issue, but you also made deductions and asertations like this that don't hold any water. "Now that I took the time to go look at Hank Lee's site, my opinion is that it's $190 worth of junk "However, Dan, I have to disagree somewhat with your assessment. Not only can this reel-on-a-safetypin (if that's what it is) steal items, but it can also deliver at least one thing: an instant case of buyer's remorse! " " At least I didn't discuss that the pulley system was a new invention, I do not know where that came from, also I am not saying that this system is better than the other one. I specifically assume my ignorance on various of the other models. The only discussion here is making asumpsions about how this specific model works, also about giving the qualification that is a piece of junk. Once again, all the assumptions might be right, but until you don't hold the equiptment in your hands, and stick it in your jacket, and even after that you have no right of calling this, or any other product a piece of junk. The Perfect Holdout might not be that perfect, but it is a very well made product, by a proffesional magician, and that deserves some basic respect. |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
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On 2002-12-07 02:30, Carlos Hampton wrote: Having finished another long day in the shop, I took a few minutes to really examine the Antonio Romero website and guess what? Even his website describes the "Perfect Holdout" as a REEL: "The Perfect Hold Out consists of an aluminium reel that is fixed to the jacket's armpit". So I feel fairly vindicated about assuming it was a reel; I guess THAT assertion holds a drop or two of water, anyway. I looked at the price - $190 - and I calculated what I expect Hank Lee’s cut to be and the cost to produce the video and packaging and Romero’s profit... and that doesn’t leave a whole lot of money for manufacturing costs, so while my assumption about quality may or may not hold a lot of water, it’s likely that it’s at least a little bit soggy. As for my assumptions about "how this specific model works", I KNOW how it works. I’ve studied the principle in depth with working models for a great deal of time before rejecting it. Remember, Carlos, I’m the manufacturer of the Fitch/Kohler Holdout. I have multiple computer-controlled lathes and milling machines, as well as all the manual machines you can imagine (and a few you can’t). I quite literally can build ANYTHING. If we thought for a moment that the principle of differential pulleys would make a better holdout we would have incorporated that principle into our design. We haven’t, and for very good reasons. But don’t take MY word for it. Tommy Wonder explored the same issues, resolved by a different mechanism that produces the SAME result as differential pulleys. He called his the “Single-action--Double-action Pulley System”, and he incorporated it into his vanishing birdcage. The two principles are different but the results – faster movement and greater travel – are identical. This is what he had to say about applying such a system to the holdout: "I think it wise here to make a short digression. Some readers might wonder if such a single-action—double-action system could be applied to the Miller holdout discussed in the previous chapter. This would be, in my opinion, a bad idea. The beauty of the Miller holdout is that, unlike a wrist-to-wrist pull, it operates most effectively without speed or the need for large motions of the cord in the sleeve [note: here he means length of travel]. It is not meant to perform lightning-fast vanishes, but is used for switches, or for “soft” gentle vanishes and production of objects. The holdout works like a mechanical third hand, secretly taking and delivering an object to your hand." He continues: "A single-action—double-action pulley does not benefit these sorts of tasks. In fact, it would complicate them by making it more difficult to know where the end of the line is and how large a movement you must make to deliver its freight to you hand. With a holdout, you want complete control over its action, speed and timing of its use. A single-action—double-action pulley works against such control, not toward it." (The Books of Wonder, volume 2) Tommy Wonder is right about his assertions – I guess you might say they hold plenty of water – and our tests proved this to our satisfaction. Of course you may argue that the Antonio Romero differential pulley system and Tommy Wonder’s single-action—double-action pulley system are not the same, and you’re right, they aren’t. But the end results ARE the same, and our tests concluded the same as Tommy Wonder’s – it’s just a bad idea for a holdout. As a PULL, it’s probably a fine product but the "Perfect Holdout" it ain’t. Regards, Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
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On 2002-12-07 00:47, Carlos Hampton wrote: Carlos I have not given any opinions regarding Antonio's holdout. I intitially said it looked like a simple pull, which I was wrong about. I have not made any comments regarding the quality or lack thereof of the holdout because I have not seen it. The only thing I DID mention is not an opinion, but rather a fact, the Perfect Holdout still has problems inherent in its design that is true to all Miller holdouts (except the F/K system). Quite honestly, I would not be aware of these inherent problems if I had not seen the solutions to these problems in the F/K System with my own eyes. I will not say that the Miller, Vernet, Romero holdouts are bad - they work upon the original Miller concept as does the F/K system. The Miller version is simply a strap, a string, and a weight brazed to an aligator clip. The Vernet model gets rid of the strap and uses a watch band hook and has a sleeve over the gripper which makes it travel in the sleeve easier. As can be seen from the Romero website he also uses a watch hook, a thread that runs to a pulley reel and a thread coming out of the reel attached to a magnetic end instead of a clip. Romero's pulley system simply changes the ratio of movement needed of the opposite arm to trigger the holdout. If you read Kohler's website he does outline the other problems that need to be solved that I can tell you factually are not solved by Romero's, Vernets', etc... This stuff is right on his site so I am not giving anything away here: Instant quick adjustments to keep string length precicse ("The Adjuster"), The ability to lock the holdout out of play permenantly or temporarily so it is not triggered when you don't want it to ("The lock"). With the F/K system you don't have to reach in or drop the end down sleeves; the lock allows it to remain at the top of the sleeve in an inactive state, but instantly available without having to ever touch it. I can't get into the "Weights and Attachments" because Kohler doesn't divulge much on his site. But what you can get from his website is that the weight is a precision crafted component that does 4 unique things: 1. Part of it makes the locking feature work, 2. The weight is adjustable for different jackets, the other two Kohler doesn't tip on his website so I am going to stop here. This is not a some fishing weight, it is a specifically machined componet, it's design is brilliant. Regarding the attachments quite honestly, much of the price of the holdout has to do with the attachments. The attachments are an entirely different concept than the "ends" of any other Miller design. The primary attachment concept is integral to the system by creating mutliple end solutions that are quick to switch and do not mess up the entire holdout adjustment. The F/K attachment concept is unique and without it the value of their holdout drops in half in my opinion. So when I state that there are problems inherent in all Miller designs that have only been solved by the F/K system, it is not a non-objective opinion based on feelings, it is a factual statement based a full disclosure of every ascpect of the F/K design. |
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