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Dan McLean Jr aka, Magic Roadie Special user Toronto, Canada 804 Posts |
Hi, gang!
I've been helping more & more magicians look at the possibility of starting to use a tiny headset/earset like the DPA 4065/4066/4067 or the Countryman E6. As discussed many times here, a full-size headset will offer MUCH greater "gain-before-feedback" than a lav. A tiny headset/earset is a compromise. offering better gain-before-feedback than a lav (no-where near as good as a full-size headset), and being less visible than a headset. Unfortunately, the DPA & the Countryman are very expensive, and I realize that not everyone here at The Café will be able to afford one. One other choice is to adapt your existing lav with the help of a Sennheiser NB2 headset adapter. It comes in beige or black. http://images.google.ca/images?q=sennhei......e+Search I just found a Web site, however, by a VERY knowledgeable wireless tech who sometimes uses a household coat hanger and a "Hellermann" tool to make a tiny headset using an existing lav mic. http://harada-sound.com/sound/ms/rfrig.html This WILL work! While reading his article, it occurred to me that you may be able to make it even smaller by using "floral wire". Sometimes, similar wires are called "floral wire", "Florist wire", "paddle wire", "stem wire", "craft wire", "jewelry wire". I imagine they'll call it ANYTHING to sell it to another niche, but you won't have any problem finding it at craft shops. At one site, I found it everywhere from 24-gauge (0.5mm) to 10-gauge (2.57mm). Although I haven't tried it, so I don't know if it's strong-enough, I'm thinkin' you might be able to make one that's thinner & lighter than a coat hanger. Maybe I'll try it tomorrow!? By the way, I mentioned a "Hellermenn tool". If you don't know what it is, it's a tool which allows you to stretch little rubber-like sleeves over the lav's cable and the wire to neatly hold the two together. If you don't have one, don't even CONSIDER buying one for the job, because they're VERY expensive. You may, however, be able to find a friend who's into electronics who has one, and who will help with the project. I think it's the cleanest solution. This certainly isn't the best solution, but if you don't mind a non-beige earset, this may get you by with ZERO additional investment! Remember, the coat hanger system WILL work, and if I do try the floral wire method, I'll let you know how I make out. Cheers from Toronto! Dan.
Dan McLean Jr
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Salazar Magic Veteran user New Jersey 344 Posts |
Quote:
I just found a Web site, however, by a VERY knowledgeable wireless tech who sometimes uses a household coat hanger and a "Hellermann" tool to make a tiny headset using an existing lav mic. http://harada-sound.com/sound/ms/rfrig.html This WILL work! Will Heatshrink tubing work? |
Dan McLean Jr aka, Magic Roadie Special user Toronto, Canada 804 Posts |
Quote:
... a "Hellermenn tool" ... a tool which allows you to stretch little rubber-like sleeves over the lav's cable and the wire to neatly hold the two together Quote:
Will Heatshrink tubing work? I don't think so, Salazar. Heatshrink can't follow curves very well. Hellermann tubing never hardens: It always remains pliable & tightly-fit. Dan.
Dan McLean Jr
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Andy Leviss Inner circle NYC 1179 Posts |
Heatshrink could work, depending on what material it's made of (there are multiple types of heatshrink), BUT it's way, way too easy to inadvertently melt a hole in the mic cable if you use too much heat, so you really don't want to use it.
As Dan suggests, you can use floral wire to make an ear rig that essentially amounts to an earset, and you won't need Hellerman sleeves for that. I've detailed this and other lav rigging techniques that we use on Broadway shows here before, I'm pretty sure, but since this link is easier to find at the moment, check this out: http://www.controlbooth.com/ftopicp-17569.html#17132 Best, Andy P.S.-Anthony, I saw your name on the bill at First Night Morristown, was really bummed I couldn't get the time to swing by your venue and say hi--I was doing sound at a number of the venues there all night! BTW, I recently heard prices of around $50-75 for a Hellerman tool from Masque Sound, according to somebody in that thread I linked to over at "Control Booth". Also, for those who care about these sort of things, Kai, whose site has that DIY headset tutorial, is the associate sound designer for Tony Meola, who designed, among other things, Wicked, A Christmas Carol (at Radio City Music Hall) and tons of other top Broadway shows. Kai definitely knows his stuff!
Note: I have PMs turned off; if you want to reach me, please e-mail [email]Andy.MagicCafe@DucksEcho.com[/email]!
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Dan McLean Jr aka, Magic Roadie Special user Toronto, Canada 804 Posts |
Thanks for your input, Andy!
I just made a decent earset using stainless steel wire and Hellermann sleeves. I tired floral wire, and while it did work, I think it's too pliable after the fact, so it's too easily bent after you've established the right shape. I used 20 guage (0.8mm) stainless steel wire, and it's pretty stiff, so you can bend it as you like, and it'll pretty much stay that way, as long as you're careful with it. It'll take a fair bit of trial-and-error to make a good wire frame, but the wire is very cheap! The only caveat with all this is that, since your lav mic will now be much closer to your mouth, you'll need to adjust the "gain" on your beltpack so that you don't cause distortion by overloading the beltpack. This is NOT the same as turning down your mixer, amp or speaker. On almost every wireless beltpack, there's a gain/volume control (maybe hidden in the battery compartment) or a "pad" switch to reduce gain. Also, don't position the mic in front of your mouth. Probably a good position is about 1/2"-1" behind the corner of your mouth, and just far enough off your face so that is doesn't touch your face as you move your mouth & turn your head. In hindsight, it seems we've spent a LOT of time on such a low-budget, make-shift solution, but, hey, if you already have a lav mic, AND if you're having gain-before-feedback problems, AND if you're short on cash this WILL work! Certainly, not the most elegant solution, but ... Cheers from Toronto!
Dan McLean Jr
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Majiloon Regular user 135 Posts |
Hi Guys-
I have been experimenting with this stuff myself, and finally found a good tubing for the boom- it comes from Pioneer balloon company, or one of it competitors- it is a coco tone, peach, or tan - 160 balloon. The diameter is about 1/8 inch- but can be stretched over the mic element, and boom with a little baby powder. Be sure to tape the mic element before you apply the powder- you don’t want that to get into the element and render it useless... So now I have a boom that is water proof- stretchable, elastic, and is a matt color so it won't shine- even when wet. This just recently came out last year- as I have been waiting for them to come out with these balloon colors for this very purpose, Use a hair dryer to it after you finished stretching it- to shrink it ever so little back to its original diameter PS- heat shrink will work with finesse- (perhaps a little BEFORE) you bend- but you risk overheating the tiny wires in the process- and I have not come across any in skin tone besides...If you do find heat shrink- stay away from 3m- as they tend to always be shinny when finished- then again- you could always apply steel wool to it to dull it. Cheers, Kelly Duro
No longer taking Private messages , thank you.
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imagique New user 61 Posts |
Hi,
I've made these headsets using the subminiature omnidirectional Audio-Technica mic. I used the coathanger wire over both ears, and used E6000 to attach a piano wire to bring the omnidirectional down to the cheek. Very close to invisible. This worked okay, but I STILL got a lot of feedback, no matter how close I put the invisible pill and wire. In this set up, the wire is best used to 'encourage' the mic cable into position. Using only invisible tape up near the bottom of the ear, or earlobe, and then another piece near where the pill forms. The mic head will go where you want it. If you get the obvious idea of pointing the mic directly at your mouth to cut down on external noises and increase gain, you'll find yourself hearing your own breathing instead of what you really wanted to hear. However, throughout all of this, you will only be working toward the ultimate solution. I've been doing this for over 20 years, in venues that are very trying, to say the least, and the tiny, subminiature E6 Beige Countryman headset with the cardioid pattern is AWESOME! I've had the beige Sennheisers, AT, Nady, etc. It's even more invisible than the other pill mics, and the cable is really REALLY thin. You won't find this on the website or ebay... you'll have to custom order it from somewhere... I found the best prices at Northern Sound and Lights. I never get feedback any longer, even if I'm working in front of a wall of speakers. I'm able to use a Crate Taxi 30 watt speaker to work very large rooms when they don't have a sound system. When they do have sound systems, my gain is tremendous, and the clarity is shocking. I used to tell people that when you're on a stage, you shouldn't be able to hear yourself. Now, you can handle speaker sensitive situations with confidence. Don't waste another dime on those other solutions. It's just not worth it. If you work many gigs at all, you'll save yourself time and effort if you just get this. Imagine being able to set up your sound system anywhere in the room, even if it's behind you. Also, get that VSM! Thanks Kelly, it's AWESOME!!! Use it to negotiate higher fees, add value to your show, and to give you further versatility in where you can set up your system. I've also ordered a second, handheld mic so that I can turn off my headset, and let someone else use the wireless handheld on the same system, set to the same channel ( I use an Audio Technica Freeway UHF frequency agile system, due to working in different cities). I'm still trying to figure out if I can have a wireless, dual speaker system by using each of my AT receivers hooked into separate speakers. Let me know if any of you have any experience. Good luck, let me know if you have any questions Jimmy |
CamelotFX Special user Minnesota 596 Posts |
Ignore my avatar, but for those of you with hair (yeah, I'm jealous) we normally "body mike" our hirsute (with hair) stage actors by attaching the mike at the hairline and running the tiny wires back into their hair. You may not think that the pickup is good but you would be wrong: the pickup is excellent. Look at cellphones: the little pinhole is nowhere near your mouth yet the quality is excellent. Audio is an air compression phenomenon and that compression extends in a sphere from the mouth outwards. A hairline mike actually receives a very good audio wave, just like a "tie-clip" lavalier, eliminating the need for coat hangers or any other Frankenstein monkey-business. We're talking professional theatre here and that's how we body-mike our haired actors; it's industry standard practice.
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imagique New user 61 Posts |
Oh, also be REALLY careful when you're grabbing a bite to eat between sets!!!
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Dan McLean Jr aka, Magic Roadie Special user Toronto, Canada 804 Posts |
Thanks imagique & CamelotFX!
While it is correct that putting a mic in the hairline or near the ear will decrease visibility, and will often yield good-enough sound quality and good-enough gain-before-feedback, the solution discussed in this thread is specifically prescribed for people who; a) are having GBF problems with a mic 6"-9" away from thier mouth b) already own a lav mic, and, c) don't have the money for a DPA 4065/4066/4067 or a Countryman E6. also, it's a fact that an omnidirectional mic placed 1" from the mouth will get abut 9db more GBF than the same mic placed 6"-9" away.
Dan McLean Jr
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imagique New user 61 Posts |
Hey Dan,
Sorry I was not adhering to the budget constraint. If you can, try borrowing and switching your omni for a cardioid mic. I know that these are more rare in the subminiatures, but you can try it and see if the difference is worth going to the trouble and expense of selling your lav. The theatrical hair placements are great if you're in a set situation every time that you are performing. But, the situation that we are in requires great variables in conditions. Yeah, I'd use a lav instead of the headset if I were in a professional theater with soundchecks and techs everywhere. But, for most magicians, that's just not the case. If I were doing what you're doing, I would look into making a small cover for the mic that points all of the reception toward your mouth. I'd just try it. Even the E6 Countryman comes with caps/covers that change the pattern for different situations. If you can make a small cover that changes the reception at all, you might be able to help get rid of the feedback, I don't know. Good luck with it, JF |
Dan McLean Jr aka, Magic Roadie Special user Toronto, Canada 804 Posts |
Quote:
If I were doing what you're doing ... Oops! I think that, in my curiousity over this whole process, I may have glossed over the fact that this isn't for me! I have access to all of the popular tiny earsets and full-size headsets, as well as several lavs. My goal in this thread was just to offer soemthing for folks who want to experiment with no investment, and for them to maybe find a workable, albeit makeshift, solution. Sorry if I mis-communicated on this, imagique, but other than that, we're covering a lot of ground here! Quote:
On 2005-01-17 00:09, imagique wrote: Hi, imagique! Good thought, but unfortunately it won't work. There's no way to significantly change the directional characteristics of an omni. If there were, we can be sure that some/all manufacturers would be doing it. The little, changeable covers on the uni-directional E6 change it from cardioid to hyper-cardiod. The little, changeable covers on the omni-directional E6 change its frequency response above 2kHz, making it sound more/less crisp. And, unfortunately, in such a tiny application there's no physical room to block sound from unwanted areas. As it stands, some manufacturers sell lavs with interchangeable capsules, but that means you're changing the whole mic, and not just altering the directionality of a particular cap. The most fundamental keys to improving gain-before-feedback are; - selecting the best mic pattern (uni-omni) for your application - minimizing the distance from mic to mouth - maximizing the distance from mic to speaker(s) - minimizing PA loudness For those of you not already familiar with these concepts, and how to make them work for you, check out the audio articles at http://www.magicroadie.com/ . Cheers! Well, here goes NUTHIN'! Here are a couple of photos of the make-shift tiny earset I built, complete with a lav mic. It's a little crude, but its looks would suffice on most any stage. If I'd used a continuous row of Hellermann tubes on the boom arm, instead of every couple of inches, I contend that it would NOT look home-made until you got within a meter of it! Since I made it out of stainless steel wire, it's pretty darned good, but you'd still need to be careful with it. It's VERY lightweight, and VERY comfortable! 16-guage wire (1.3mm) wolud work very nicely with the smallest Hellerman tubes (1.2mm), and would make it slightly more sturdy. Remember, it's specifically prescribed for people who; a) are having gain-before-feedback problems with a mic 6"-9" away from thier mouth b) already own a lav mic, and, c) don't have the money for a DPA 4065/4066/4067 or a Countryman E6. http://www.magicroadie.com/images/Earset.jpg Cheers!
Dan McLean Jr
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Andy Leviss Inner circle NYC 1179 Posts |
Imagique, of course you didn't get significant gain before feedback increases when making your makeshift headset out of your old lavalier. GBF from a headset is primarily due to the fact that most headsets are cardioid, as your E6 is, and not omnidirectional. Your lav was still an omni, so it was still picking up the same sounds it did anywhere else you wore it.
The only thing moving an omni closer to your mouth does is make your voice (going into the mic) louder, but that sound is the same volume coming out of the speakers, and then back into the microphone from off-axis, thus causing feedback. What this may help with is boosting your voice over a noisy background, but even then, a cardioid is a better solution. It's the cardioid in the cardioid headset that reduces gain, not the headset!
Note: I have PMs turned off; if you want to reach me, please e-mail [email]Andy.MagicCafe@DucksEcho.com[/email]!
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imagique New user 61 Posts |
Hey Andy,
It's Jimmy Fingers, I've enjoyed your posts on the newsgroups over the years. I'm not sure what you mean by your post... My old omni lav that I changed into a headset seemed to do a bit better as a headset than it did as a lav because I didn't have to turn the speakers up as loud to get the same amount of 'punch'. With my mouth closer to the omni, it seemed to do better than as a lav on my upper chest/lower throat. Louder, clearer, less feedback. But, I see what you're saying about the sound feeding back the same, regardless of distance, as long as the volume coming out of the speaker is the same. Maybe, the increase in sound quality was all in my head. There's always that possibility. Up until recently, I don't think that more headsets were cardioid than omni. I had a really hard time finding the cardioids, even the Countryman isn't on their lists and website. You have to tell them specifically that that is what you want. Almost all of the headsets that I see on ebay and elsewhere are omnidirectional. I'll bet that about 90 percent are. All I know is that I'll never use that omni ever again. Why do these companies sell so many more omnis than cardioids? Thanks for your reply, Jimmy |
Andy Leviss Inner circle NYC 1179 Posts |
Hey Jimmy,
In thinking about it again thanks to a note Dan sent me, I do agree that a headset with an omni pattern will reduce feedback compared to a similar lav placed further away, but also still stick to my ground that a cardioid will feedback even less. My initial thinking was that, if it's an omni capsule, it's going to pick up sound from all sides. Presumably, the target level you want coming out of the speaker is the same wherever you put the mic, you're just turning it up less to get it. But the volume coming out of the speaker and back into the mic is still going to be the same, given the same distance from the speaker, so I was thinking that the same sound level going into the mic is going to produce feedback at the same point. I didn't stop to take into account that the mic isn't turned up as high to get the sound to that level, so the amplified sound going back into the mic won't be re-amplified nearly as much. Mea culpa. :o) That said, I still say that you'll get better GBF from a cardioid than from an omni, although perhaps I overstated the case. Write it off to being tired from a flight and not fully thinking it through! I will say that with some of the blocking in my current tour, I couldn't do it without the cardioid. --A
Note: I have PMs turned off; if you want to reach me, please e-mail [email]Andy.MagicCafe@DucksEcho.com[/email]!
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imagique New user 61 Posts |
Hi Andy,
The Sesame Street thing is AWESOME!!! My wife has a degree in Theater with a Masters degree in Early Childhood development, and has been trying to get on with CTW for years. Let us know if they ever need a beautiful, naturally talented person to work on the show. She's the bomb. On the mics, I was actually agreeing with you about cardioids, I think that for what we do, and with the quality of the sound from the current crop of cardioids, the choice is a real no brainer. I think that Dan's the one that feels better about the omnis, because of the overall sensitivity or quality of sound. In a perfectly designed theater or room, those work great. Problem with our disagreement is that, obviously, Dan works better rooms than me! Thanks for the re-think on the gain levels, I thought that I was going crazy. You guys know a lot more than I do, I'm not ashamed to say. My question "why do they show more omni's?" at the end of my last post was not meant as a hint toward omni's being better at all... I was REALLY asking, why do they push the omni's so often, and not the better, more useful, flexible cardioids? Have you ever found a rechargeable system or rechargeable 9-volts that could handle an hour of stagework, consistently? Continued success with your productions, Jimmy Fingers |
Dan McLean Jr aka, Magic Roadie Special user Toronto, Canada 804 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-01-19, Andy Leviss wrote: Quote:
On 2005-01-19, Andy Leviss wrote: Quote:
On 2005-01-19, imagique wrote: [quote]On 2005-01-19, imagique wrote: Quote:
why do they push the omni's so often, and not the better, more useful, flexible cardioids? Andy & Jimmy, This "omni vs uni earset" thing is a VERY cool topic, and it's even much debated in the world of "pro audio". I'm glad we're talking about it. What I've heard debated, though, is not which is better, but which is better IN A GIVEN CONTEXT. Leave it with me for a bit, and I'll find a way to illustrate my point. Thanks for helping with this topic, gentlemen! Dan. Quote:
On 2005-01-19, Andy Leviss wrote: Here's where Andy and I diverge --- and I think this is the first time! Anyway, Andy & I have spoken about this, and while it is clear we disagree, it's also clear that we can do so with a handshake and a smile! Thanks, Andy. We have different opinions, and I can only assume they're based upon different experiences and different judgements. In this post, I can't pretend to speak for Andy, or anyone else, and please keep in mind that, when a comment represents my opinion, I'll try to be careful to label it as such. Previously in this thread, I was too intent on "being right" (note to self ... "Stop DOING that!"), and therefore lost sight of the fact that my rule-of-thumb bias toward omni's (when it come to tiny earsets, and lavs) is based upon more than just gain-before feedback. Feedback results from a combination of many factors, including speaker placement and dispersion pattern, mic placement and pick-up pattern, the frequency response of both devices, PA loudness, and room acoustics. The combination of these factors doesn't always make the choice easy, and in fact, these factors sometimes point in different directions, and that's why a wise man once said, "Live audio is a science of compromises". I say, "Context is crucial, and compromise is compulsory." In my opinion, here's why the answer to the omni earset/uni earset question is not clear-cut. Without a PA, omni earsets & lavs sound better, but in a bad GBF situation, a uni will USUALLY work better. I hold on to my tendency to favour the omni as long as I can, and don't succumb to a uni lav or uni earset until it's absolutely necessary. When a uni becomes necessary (by my standards), it's what I choose, but until then I favour an omni for two primary reasons. 1) Omni's sound better (barring extenuating circumstances). 2) Because omni's have little-or-no proximity effect, it's possible to have almost constant gain-to-feedback ratio across the stage. This means that it is possible for the magician to move all over the stage without suddenly stepping into a feedback zone. Bottom line is that I ain't sayin' omni's are a better choice, and I ain't sayin' uni's are a better choice. What I'm sayin' is that it's necessary to take all factors into consideration when choosing between the two. My rule-of-thumb is to start with an omni, and to move to a uni only if I've exhausted the other GBF-improving tactics. Anyway, ladies & gents, I fear I may have out-stayed my welcome in this thread, but I hope I've finally made my point clear without getting too defensive. "Context is crucial, and compromise is compulsory." Dan.
Dan McLean Jr
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