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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Pasteboard Frolics » » Just my thoughts, what do you all think (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Chris Keppel
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I was playing around over at handlordz and saw something that was a great idea and I thought that we should do it here in the flourish threads at the Café. Ive been seeing a lot of people bashing left and right and raising a bunch of fuss over people's material. In the battle section at handlordz they started a new rule and I think it was one of the smartest things they could have done. The rule is that you cant make idiotic posts bashing other people's material unless you have CONTRIBUTED videos, or material of your own. Ive seen way to many 10 year olds (or atleast they act that age) on here just slamming people's material when they have never once offered anything of there own to our art, or to the Café for other members to check out. Keep in mind this is not directed at ANYONE so please no one get your panties in a bunch over this post. Just something I thought we should start doing here. I think the fellas at handlordz nailed this issue on the head by starting this. Of course we wont be able to stop all the crap but this may help over time once people relize that you cant come on here just to bash someone because you don't like a sybil, or an armspread, or a cuts dvd, or an xcm move ect. If you don't like it why waste your time, and more importantly the Café members time in posting crap that doesn't matter, or in that case appeal to your type of material. IF YOU don't LIKE IT MOVE ONTO THE NEXT THREAD AND POST ABOUT SOMETHING YOU DO ENJOY DOING.

All this fighting over who likes this, and who likes that, just gets a bunch of bull started then the Café either locks the topic or erases it all together. Just my 2 cents but I want to give mad props to Handlordz for making this rule up. After they started that rule I saw that all the idiotic, meaningless, no sense, bull crap posts stoped almost like the day after. Keep in mind that everyone has there opinion, but please people, stop the madness. Flourisher, Magicians, XCM, and anyone else who wants to see our art grow needs to come together as one to make this art all it can be.

I personally do many flourishes, I do lots of XCM moves, I do normall magic shows, and am a full time magician. I take no sides here. I feel as if I'm part of a whole here. I don't take sides and bash people for what they like, or don't like. Its just wishfull thinking. I hope a lot of you all feel the same way I do over this issue because frankly, its been getting way out of hand for way to long and it all needs to stop. Our artform can never grow to its highest if we keep taking sides and slamming each other over silly things. Please post how you feel. I don't know about you all but I am sick and tired of our great threads being ruined locked/erased by either childish comments, by haters, or by people who just want to start some crap.

It all boils down to, unless we come together to make the art of Flourishes, and XCM all it can be, we will never see the full aspect of the one thing we all love. If you feel the same way I do and want to work together to help our art grow, then please post your feelings so other people really do see how much you love your art.

Remember, this post was directed at NO ONE. It wasnt meant to start a fuss. It was meant to try to fix the one major problem here in this thread.

Kepp
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GeorgeSantos
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Nice one Chris! I salute you! Smile great idea.
"David Roth is the greatest coin manipulator in the entire world.."

-Dai Vernon "The Professor"


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MnemonicaRedux
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Right on, Chris... I've even seen 10 year olds who act better than these guys! Like I said before, this ****e occurs when opinions "become" facts. Because of these fights on the Café (i come here to see who's bashign who, honestly), I'd say the name of flourishes/XCM has been tainted. There's a difference between being bad-ass, and just plain bad (in the virtuous sense, not the skill-wise sense).

These flying comments at people who you don't even KNOW is just plain... bargh. Just remember, Santa's watching.

Oh, and by the way... in lieu of the recently closed thread, I guess you could call that a "CAPS Lock"? AHHAHAHA... just kidding. Or "LOL LOL LOL", as it's often said....

-Kev
Caution
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Amen Chris.
Mike
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MetalBender
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Right on Chris, this is a spectacular idea. The nice thing is it applies well, it's not like arguing over an ideology, it's simple if you don't got the goods you can't **** and moan. Awesome idea.
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fingerjack
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I don't feel the same way so I won't post.


Oooops.
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Chris Keppel
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Right one all. This is how we should be. There are flourishers, and xmc and magicians here to learn and grow together. My example is working out already. Take the cap c thread. It wasnt even open for a day. The Café already locked it. Now no one can express how they feel about any of that info that is there. This thread I started was sort of a test to see how many of you really back up our art. Anyone who doesn't see where I was coming from and/or didn't really agree is most likely part of the problem. If you cant see that I am trying to make our art better then you really don't love this great thing we have. Like I said in the above post, every one has an opinion. You can express that you do not do certain material without bashing the heck out of it. Take the age old sybil for example. Yes there are many, many variations of it. We have all seen the sybil get bashed time and time again. If you don't like it, just say something on the lines of. "Yes sybil can be a challanging cut sometimes. Its just not my style of card work though" and end it with that, or just don't post at all. If you don't like it, skip it and go post on a thread you do like. You expressed that you don't use or do sybils in your cardwork. There is no need to make a 2 paragraph post on how much you think sybils suck and the fact that everyone and there mother does them and there are 5614 dvd's on the sybil alone. Obviously people do like those cuts or otherwise there wouldnt be so many variations. Im super glad that some guys backed me up on this. I have mad respect for all of you that posted to let everyone else know that you do LOVE your art and you DO want to take the steps to make it all it can be.


Quote:
On 2005-01-16 06:04, MnemonicaRedux wrote:

Oh, and by the way... in lieu of the recently closed thread, I guess you could call that a "CAPS Lock"? AHHAHAHA... just kidding. Or "LOL LOL LOL", as it's often said....

-Kev


You crack me up Kev, LMAO right now. See, that's not bashing Cap, its just making light of the subject.

The one and only
Kepp
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Caution
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CapsLock. LOL,LMAO Kev is a funny boy.
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ragtop
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Good idea Chris. Why bash anyone? Why bash a particular flourish? Can't we agree to disagree without becoming abusive?

I am curious to see why anyone would disagree with your idea. I suppose some enjoy trash talking for the fun of it, but I would be curious to hear the reasoning of a different opinion.
MnemonicaRedux
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Thing is, I started doing flourishes just to have fun, and that's the way it should be... forever and always. Fighting isn't fun, but little harmless jokes once in a while can be okay, in my book. ***... gotta go for Western Civ class now, catch y'all later.

-Kev
Chris Keppel
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Right on Kev, you said it exactly. Its all about having fun and making our art grow as one. No one wants to post a video only to get ripped apart by people who most of the time cant do the material in the first place. It just gets old. Come on people, its 2005. We need to come together and fast forward our skills to make this art go places its never been before. Lets not have yet another year of stupid, idiotic post just tearing each other down. Giving insperation to one another is a main key in developing new ideas. I know I wouldnt be drivin to make up new effects, cuts, ect if everytime I post a video it gets bashed by my fellow people. We need to point out key spots of effects, cuts, and material in which we feel could be better to help one another make it better. I feel in just the one day that this thread has been up that we have already made a great improvment. I see magicians, card workers, xcm, flourishers all in the same thread agreeing on the same goal. These are the kind of threads that help us grow as one. Keep up the great posts guys and keep the material coming. Lets try to change this section of the Café so that we all enjoy coming here. I love this section of the Café. I basicly check out a few card things here and there but find myself coming to the "PASTEBOARD FROLICS" area every single day, many times a day to see new updates and post. I think if we make this section better then more and more people will soon join in to post new ideas, material, videos, demos, ect. I think that it will make it a lot better place and we will all enjoy it 100 times more. Im sorry if I make some of you feel as if your in church and I'm front stage preaching, but this is what we need to do.

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Kepp
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Caution
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Preach on brother Chris.
Mike
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Chris Keppel
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I will be pasing the plate around soon, so empty out your pockets tight wads.

ahhaahha, no really. Give me your shiznit now.
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You'we seen my ****.... and it was **** (lmao)
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fingerjack
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Quote:
On 2005-01-17 00:06, ragtop wrote:
I am curious to see why anyone would disagree with your idea. I suppose some enjoy trash talking for the fun of it, but I would be curious to hear the reasoning of a different opinion.


I wasn’t sure if this was referring to me, but seeing the good responds this post has gotten thus far, I thought I would share my reasoning.

It is a noble thought Kepp Daddy to unite into one and strive forward to advance the art. But that is the problem. What art are we talking about? XCMers want nothing to do with magic, magicians don’t want to be athletes, and flourisher isn’t even a real category as far as I’m concerned (when was the last time you heard ANYBODY say “Hey, I saw a great flourisher the other day.”).

You are always going to have naysayers, no matter what you do (see, I’m one of them). While it’s a good idea that you shouldn’t be able to bash without contributing something of worth (who makes the decision if it’s worthy anyhow?). How about no bashing period? It is sadly true that this forum generates more arguments than it does useful information. But you know what, that’s human nature. There is always going to be a bad apple or someone who gets off on ruining the fun no matter what you do or where you go.

I have never submitted a video (at least not one like we are talking about). I have good reasons for this. 1) I feel I have nothing to prove to anybody. 2) I have more important things to do with the time I spend with my video equipment (like paying jobs), 3) the root cause of almost these ridiculous arguments usually stems from someone posting a video, 4) all the bashing that goes on here, as awful as it sounds, I find amusing. I have learned very little (if nothing) from this forum over the last year except who the troublemakers and spammers are. To post a video is like offering your open throat to a blade. And lastly 5) although I am strongly influenced by those leading the foray (De’vo, Jerry, the Bucks, Tudor, Casino, etc) I have material of my own I like to keep to myself. How often to you hear someone being bashed for posting something unoriginal. Well, if you post something original, then people rip it off (or claim you aren’t the originator anyway), so what is the point?

The smart reader comes here and takes away the few positives and is amused by the negatives. I find myself coming daily to Pasteboard Frolics and posting often, but I have a personality disorder, what is everyone else’s excuse?

I try to contribute what I can and share what I know (without posting a video) and if people don’t like my posts, they can skip them. However, it is everyone’s right to disagree and how they choose to do it is up to them (and the rules of the forum). I try not to bash anyone. Interestingly, if you had the time to read through all the troubled posts in this forum you would see that most of the animosity comes from a very small group of people.

I like to consider myself an optimistic pessimist, but I doubt there will ever come a time when flourishers, magicians, and XCMers will ever join together, holds hands in a circle and sing Kum bi ya. There are too many folks too narrow minded to see the common link between us all, and that is the biggest shame of them all.
MAGNAPALM - The World's first psionic magnetic implants that is changing the future of magic http://youtu.be/EDmg2bp_Cas

WASHED AND DRYED - An squeaky clean incredible full deck transformation!
http://fingerjack.wix.com/washedanddryed
Chris Keppel
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Nice post fingerjack. I see exactly where your coming from. Just to clear something up real quick. I didn't mean just because someone has contributed a video demo, or material that they now have the right to bash anything. Its just that there comments are more welcome because they have put forth the effort to futher our art. I don't think we should bash anyone for anything. You can tell someone that you don't fancy the trick or its not your style without tearing them a new one.
Im a firm believer in if you don't like that trick or that catagory, then move onto the next thing that you do like. don't waste people's time in reading a 6 paragraph sentence of why you think that effect sucks. Obviously people do like the things that get bashed otherwise there wouldnt be 30 good posts and one negative post. Im with you fingerjack. I don't bash anyone because well for one, I don't want my material bashed, and for 2, bashing peopls stuff is not motivating to anyone. Like I said above, who wants to get bashed by there fellow magicians, flourishers, ect when they post a video. Original or not. Maybe they just want to show off that they can do one of the bucks cuts very fast and smooth. Or maybe they want to show they can do 4 variations of an armspread ect. Im not trying to say that we all have to post original stuff. Ive seen a few times where someone posts a video of them doing something just to show it off and 20 people tell him that's been done before. Where the guy wasnt trying to claim it as his anyway, just showing some of his skills. Ive also seen where 20 people say its been done before but for some reason no one can give a source to find it. They just bash and say its not original. For these people I say don't call something unoriginal unless you yourself can give a reference to where it can be found. Just saying "I saw it 2 years ago in vegas" isn't a source and its not helping anyone or the situation. So it all comes down to your few words of wisdom in your post fingerjack, which is a very good point. "WE SHOULDNT BASH EACH OTHER AT ALL" because it does nothing for the art and it doesn't inspire anyone to come up with anything.

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Kepp
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fingerjack
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How many card manipulators does it take to screw in a light bulb?

One hundred.

One to do it and 99 to argue about who came up with the method.


There are very, very few instances in the real world where the originator of something plays such an important role as it does in the realms of card magic and manipulation. Many of the entertaining arts and sports such, juggling, bartender flaring, exotic weapons experts and so forth all use similar moves that date back to obscurity. These arts don’t bicker and spittle over the tiny nuisances likes those that handle the pasteboards. They embrace ALL of what matters to their art and do the best to be original with it and don’t expend the energy making sure their moves are unique or properly credited.

Cards are so complex in the ways that they contain mysteries of all sorts. From gamblers, to fortune tellers to mathematicians to children to magicians to flourishers to extreme card manipulators. One thing they all have in common is the love for those little pieces of paper and plastic. So much could be learned from each other that only a true egotistical fool would bother bashing someone else’s obvious love for the cards, despite how unoriginal or poorly executed their flourishes, sleights, tricks, games, or ideas may be.

Music is the biggest example. Do you know how many songs follow the generic three chord pattern? From the Beatles to Nirvana and thousands in between , three chord structured melodies have been the norm, each adding their own little spin and personality to it. Why? Because these chords just happen to sound good. So good that someone would have come upon the melody eventually anyway. It’s the same thing to what we do, except for some reason this art form thrives on “being original” yet everyone is forbidden to use someone else’s tools. I didn’t see Eddie Van Halen cryin’ like a baby that thousands of guitar players started using hammer and pull offs the way he did. In fact, he embraced it and shared his technique with everyone he could. No performance rights, no being bashed and banned from guitar jam sessions. Just another tool for all of them to use. In the end Eddie admitted he got the idea from Billy Gibbons from ZZ Top when he once used his picking hand to hammer a note, and Gibbons said he got it from watching a violinist when he was young. Sound familiar?

Now of course, taking someone’s hard work and stealing it for profit (a la Magic Makers) is pure piracy, and that I am against. Giving credit when credit is due is also morally and ethically correct. But trashing someone for utilizing all the tools available is ridiculous. We are all in the same boat, no matter how hard you try to separate ourselves. All this petty BS that I see so often here serves as a testament to morbid human curiosity.

While I’m ranting, let me mention one more thing. What the hell is the “underground” we hear so much about. Where is this place and who are they? As far as I am concerned, anybody with a website or product for sale can not possibly, by definition, be underground. Sounds just like another marketing term. If it was truly underground, you wouldn’t even know about it.

I’m done for tonight. I wish you luck Kepp Daddy on your noble mission to unite those who do not wish to be united. People like me shall continue to sit and gaze from afar and filter through the BS and collect the bits of knowledge and wisdom and use them in our own ways to further the art.
MAGNAPALM - The World's first psionic magnetic implants that is changing the future of magic http://youtu.be/EDmg2bp_Cas

WASHED AND DRYED - An squeaky clean incredible full deck transformation!
http://fingerjack.wix.com/washedanddryed
artwo
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Quote:
On 2005-01-17 00:06, ragtop wrote:
Good idea Chris. Why bash anyone? Why bash a particular flourish? Can't we agree to disagree without becoming abusive?

I am curious to see why anyone would disagree with your idea. I suppose some enjoy trash talking for the fun of it, but I would be curious to hear the reasoning of a different opinion.


I think I might give that a go, or atleast offer a reason why people do it. I think it is because of bad influences from more famous manipulators, De'vo for example. He bans people from his forum when he suspects copying or anything like that, which in my opinion is a little rash.

You can say people should just be quiet, but until you tell people like De'vo to do it, then why should anyone else?
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